FAR 117 being re-worked?

ZapBrannigan

ZapBrannigan

Old enough to have watched Wings live on TV.
Have any of you heard the rumor that the unions along with airline managers and the FAA are sitting down and talking about what is working and not working with FAR 117 and may be considering changes to the reg?

Wondering what everyone else is hearing on this topic. It would be difficult to argue that 117 is making anyone less fatigued!
 
SpiceWeasel

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
ZapBrannigan said:
Have any of you heard the rumor that the unions along with airline managers and the FAA are sitting down and talking about what is working and not working with FAR 117 and may be considering changes to the reg?

Wondering what everyone else is hearing on this topic. It would be difficult to argue that 117 is making anyone less fatigued!
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Probably just changing the PIC concurrence to exceed the limits.
 
jtrain609

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
ZapBrannigan said:
Have any of you heard the rumor that the unions along with airline managers and the FAA are sitting down and talking about what is working and not working with FAR 117 and may be considering changes to the reg?

Wondering what everyone else is hearing on this topic. It would be difficult to argue that 117 is making anyone less fatigued!
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Sorry man, but you're full of it, Holmes. Down here, reduced rest overnights were a goal. There's no way sleeping 5 hours a night for a four day was safe.
 
PhilosopherPilot

PhilosopherPilot

Well-Known Member
jtrain609 said:
Sorry man, but you're full of it, Holmes. Down here, reduced rest overnights were a goal. There's no way sleeping 5 hours a night for a four day was safe.
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I think it's a step in the right direction, but 117 is too complicated. It needs a good makeover, though probably not the makeover that management wants. :)
 
elmetal

elmetal

Ain't nobody got time for that
I can say I hear good and bad things about it on the bro. Apparently 8 leg days sucked and were tiring, but now people complain that they miss the 8 leg days because it was the only way to make bro trips efficient.
 
jtrain609

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
PhilosopherPilot said:
I think it's a step in the right direction, but 117 is too complicated. It needs a good makeover, though probably not the makeover that management wants. :)
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If it's too complicated to understand, said person probably shouldn't be flying airplanes. I've found this much easier to keep track of than the old rules, and to be honest my logbook keeps track of all the details for me. It really can't get much easier.
 
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Louie1975

Well-Known Member
jtrain609 said:
If it's too complicated to understand, said person probably shouldn't be flying airplanes. I've found this much easier to keep track of than the old rules, and to be honest my logbook keeps track of all the details for me. It really can't get much easier.
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But yet almost a year into it...we're still getting 'interpretations.'
 
dasleben

dasleben

That's just, like, your opinion, man
On the international, augmented passenger ops side of the house, the changes have been good. We have shiny new rest facilities that didn't exist before (okay, so it's just a near-lie-flat with a curtain, but better than we had before), and more restrictive duty days/nights. It's far, far better than what we had under 121 supplemental rules.

Of course, my company mostly operates freight, so that side of the house is unchanged. I herd @Polar742 likes 11.5 hour SYD-ICN legs without rest facilities.
 
PhilosopherPilot

PhilosopherPilot

Well-Known Member
jtrain609 said:
If it's too complicated to understand, said person probably shouldn't be flying airplanes. I've found this much easier to keep track of than the old rules, and to be honest my logbook keeps track of all the details for me. It really can't get much easier.
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I don't think it's difficult to understand, but to someone else's point, my company still can't decide what an extension is. Of course, some of that is posturing for ALPAs benefit.
 
ZapBrannigan

ZapBrannigan

Old enough to have watched Wings live on TV.
jtrain609 said:
Sorry man, but you're full of it, Holmes. Down here, reduced rest overnights were a goal. There's no way sleeping 5 hours a night for a four day was safe.
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Not sure what I'm full of. All I asked was whether anyone had heard of a meeting between the movers and shakers to discuss changes to 117.
 
SpiceWeasel

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
jtrain609 said:
If it's too complicated to understand, said person probably shouldn't be flying airplanes. I've found this much easier to keep track of than the old rules, and to be honest my logbook keeps track of all the details for me. It really can't get much easier.
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Yeah, if it's easy to understand, why are there so many interpretations of it now.

Did you know that signing the release authorizes you for a 30 minute extension? That's how certain companies are treating it.

Did you know that if you don't accept an extension you have to file a fatigue report? That's how certain companies are treating it.

One of my favorite new rumors about it is if you have an accident/incident/violation occur during your extension period you are guilty of negligence for exceeding a scientifically determined table.

If it was simple, Sabre would have reprogrammed crewweb by now to show 117 limits on one's schedule.

Despite 117 battling fatigue, the 30 hour layover still allows you to finish at midnight one day and start at 6 AM 30 hours later... Either I have to only sleep 4 hours or so on night one, or somehow sleep in until 8-9 AM followed by a 4 AM wakeup. What does science say about a 4 hour shift in wake-time in less than 2 days?
 
broncoav8r

broncoav8r

Well-Known Member
ZapBrannigan said:
Not sure what I'm full of. All I asked was whether anyone had heard of a meeting between the movers and shakers to discuss changes to 117.
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ALPA, A4A, and the FAA are having a conference in a couple of weeks to talk about it, but I haven't heard of sweeping changes...
 
ZapBrannigan

ZapBrannigan

Old enough to have watched Wings live on TV.
Ok, so there actually IS a conference. I had heard a rumor but didn't know if it was legit.
 
jtrain609

jtrain609

Antisocial Monster
Christ guys, the FAA puts out legal interpretations every month. Just because you haven't been paying attention doesn't mean that ALL the rules aren't constantly being massaged. How about the one recently that explained AGAIN when flight time starts? Or what holding out is?

This is a normal part of the process that is constantly happening, you just didn't realize it until part 117 came out.
 
jynxyjoe

jynxyjoe

Queso King
jtrain609 said:
Christ guys, the FAA puts out legal interpretations every month. Just because you haven't been paying attention doesn't mean that ALL the rules aren't constantly being massaged. How about the one recently that explained AGAIN when flight time starts? Or what holding out is?

This is a normal part of the process that is constantly happening, you just didn't realize it until part 117 came out.
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How about you give me that website with the interpretations!?

No honestly, can you give me some site for the update? All this talk about people having trouble makes me think I should learn something about it. I just use the chart.
 
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