Fake it till you can make it.

[MikeD]

Don't forget the offset.

Do a 180 and you'll be off the runway laterally by whatever your turn radius is. It's more like 270 degrees or something of turning when all is said and done to get back to the runway.

I could try the math, but I prefer the TLAR approach to problem solving.

Good observation; we haven't necessarily factored that in yet....I don't think, but that;s something a good pilot will factor into his decision making for a takeoff emergency prior to rolling.

Interesting discussion, I'll step back waaaay out of it now.

It is interesting, especially because we're arguing the opposite sides of the same coin. Both forks in the road get you to slightly different destinations in the town; but they still get you to town, just depends what street you need to get to.

There really are good points all around. The flexibility thing I think was simply each of us misunderstanding what the definition of "is" is. So it's no matter.

It's actually a conspiracy......traffic in the CFI forum has been low, so we needed to create action to attract watchers....like WWE wrestling. This whole argument has been pre-planned in PM.

 

[woutlaw]

It is interesting, especially because we're arguing the opposite sides of the same coin. Both forks in the road get you to slightly different destinations in the town; but they still get you to town, just depends what street you need to get to.

There really are good points all around. The flexibility thing I think was simply each of us misunderstanding what the definition of "is" is. So it's no matter.

It's a great lesson for newer CFIs out there (heck, all CFIs for that matter, ok, all pilots ).

There's almost always more than one "right" way to do something, as you guys have shown.

Flying is a fantastic business/avocation. There's always something new to learn. That's what I like about it.

 

[Malko]

where is that dead horse smiley........

wrap it up people......

 

[MikeD]

It's a great lesson for newer CFIs out there (heck, all CFIs for that matter, ok, all pilots ).

There's almost always more than one "right" way to do something, as you guys have shown.

Flying is a fantastic business/avocation. There's always something new to learn. That's what I like about it.

Glad you've learned good stuff from all the posters in this thread, as all have very good information, just from different angles of the equation. And I mean that.

And I'm still learning stuff I don't know; as all of us are.

 

[tgrayson]

The Vy climb, at the point of failure we're talking about, doesn't have the extra speed available IF he's flying his glide profile and maintaining Vy, unless he cashes it in, whereby he ends up in the same area the Vy + 10 pilot is already in with maneuverability.

Not true, he ends up in a far better better area, depending on how long the aircraft are climbing at their respective airspeeds; either he has more altitude at the same airspeed or he has more airspeed, or more of both. He can afford to cash in his altitude because he has lots more of it.

Although the differences are small between the two situations at 100 AGL, they become huge the longer the aircraft fly. I have a spreadsheet here that shows after 1 minute, the Vy aircraft has about 27% more energy, after 2 minutes, 49%, after 3 minutes, 61%, etc. (Based on an excessive speed of 20 knots, though,)

 

[MikeD]

Not true, he ends up in a far better better area, depending on how long the aircraft are climbing at their respective airspeeds; either he has more altitude at the same airspeed or he has more airspeed, or more of both. He can afford to cash in his altitude because he has lots more of it.

Although the differences are small between the two situations at 100 AGL, they become huge the longer the aircraft fly. I have a spreadsheet here that shows after 1 minute, the Vy aircraft has about 27% more energy, after 2 minutes, 49%, after 3 minutes, 61%, etc. (Based on an excessive speed of 20 knots, though,)

The ~500-800AGL, roughly 30 seconds after T/O was where our discussion was focused; fairly close to the ground still, where there the differences are indeed not much. I completely agree that at the rate the two (+10 and Vy alone) diverge, that yes over time the benefit becomes more and more; where the straight-Vy would indeed become a better choice; as that's where it's effectiveness really picks up as the values (gains) diverge from one another and Vy becomes more gain over time. Completely agree with you.

 

[ppragman]

Don't forget the offset.

Do a 180 and you'll be off the runway laterally by whatever your turn radius is. It's more like 270 degrees or something of turning when all is said and done to get back to the runway.

I could try the math, but I prefer the TLAR approach to problem solving.

Interesting discussion, I'll step back waaaay out of it now.

True, I've thought about this, so its more like a 190-230degree turn direct the numbers. If I'm lucky I'll get a taxiway to line up on.

Not true, he ends up in a far better better area, depending on how long the aircraft are climbing at their respective airspeeds; either he has more altitude at the same airspeed or he has more airspeed, or more of both. He can afford to cash in his altitude because he has lots more of it.

Although the differences are small between the two situations at 100 AGL, they become huge the longer the aircraft fly. I have a spreadsheet here that shows after 1 minute, the Vy aircraft has about 27% more energy, after 2 minutes, 49%, after 3 minutes, 61%, etc. (Based on an excessive speed of 20 knots, though,)

You're also forgetting the advantages of cooling. You'll wanna be able to keep the motor cool and that extra 10-20kts might do the trick. Read the POH, the POH even says climb out at 80-90 then climb at 90-100 in the 207. How can you be so strict to follow procedure on one side, then completely disregard procedure on the other.

Plus, Vy isn't what you should be climbing at if you are bucking a headwind. Highspeed climb plus extra power in cruise = more gas in the tank if you do it right. But that too is another scenario.

BTW, you're right about drag coming on as the cube, so yes there is less available energy, but frankly, I don't care, that's not what I want at this time, thus that's not what I'm going to do.

I'm done with this one.


-Pat

 

[jrh]

I'm done with this one.

Yeah, me too.

I'm still thoroughly unconvinced that adding airspeed has any benefits, but that's life. Web forums are a lousy format for debates this deep. As long as we, or our students, don't die because of these techniques, I guess that's all that matters.

It's too bad we all live in various corners of the world. I'd love to go hop in a plane with any of you (MikeD, ppragman, tgrayson) and flight test some of these theories.






And prove once and for all I'm right

 

[Douglas]

The flexibility thing I think was simply each of us misunderstanding what the definition of "is" is. So it's no matter.

I agree, it seemed like you guys were using the same word but diverging.

-------

I would like everybody to know, I am giving myself 10 points for staying out of it.

I have a nasty habit of jumping in.

 

[MikeD]

Yeah, me too.

I'm still thoroughly unconvinced that adding airspeed has any benefits, but that's life. Web forums are a lousy format for debates this deep. As long as we, or our students, don't die because of these techniques, I guess that's all that matters.

It's too bad we all live in various corners of the world. I'd love to go hop in a plane with any of you (MikeD, ppragman, tgrayson) and flight test some of these theories.

And prove once and for all I'm right

you never know...I may have to eat my words and buy you a steak!

 

[JrsyGuy]

It is interesting, especially because we're arguing the opposite sides of the same coin. Both forks in the road get you to slightly different destinations in the town; but they still get you to town, just depends what street you need to get to.

Unless the street you want to get to is a little further away

It's really 6 or 1/2 dozen;

I see it as more 7 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other.

Just busting chops, but still, that's what i believe

You're also forgetting the advantages of cooling. You'll wanna be able to keep the motor cool and that extra 10-20kts might do the trick. Read the POH, the POH even says climb out at 80-90 then climb at 90-100 in the 207. How can you be so strict to follow procedure on one side, then completely disregard procedure on the other.

Plus, Vy isn't what you should be climbing at if you are bucking a headwind. Highspeed climb plus extra power in cruise = more gas in the tank if you do it right. But that too is another scenario.

-Pat

As well as better visability but you are sacrificing for that. And wouldnt a strong headwind on climbout keep you closer to the runway requiring less distance needed to travel should you need to get back to the airport? I do agree that in cruise your theory is correct where the converse would be with a tail wind reduce power and get a higher angle of attack and let the wind 'carry' you.

I also am a believer in flexibility. Huge infact. Which is exactly why climbing out at Vy is the absolute best method when looking for energy/options. Think about it, wouldn't having more available energy provide you with plenty of more options and flexibility since you will have more time available due to the excess altitude?

 

[Parasite]

This thread was way, way more interesting before the last two pages... now it's just way off topic. I want to hear some more stories!

 

[ILS37R]

This thread was way, way more interesting before the last two pages... now it's just way off topic. I want to hear some more stories!

Well I found that really early on, I would also want to jump into conversations between instructors more experienced than I. Since then I've learned it's sometimes better to sit back and listen.

Also... the more instructors you put in a plane, the more silly things become.

 

[moxiepilot]

One item I remembered this morning, in the shower (yes I do think about JC when I'm not online, sad, I know.) was a BFR done with a pilot who also held foreign flight privilidges.

If I remember the fella correctly, he was from Europe, had flown in the US; just not for some time.

He wanted to accomplish his BFR so that he could rent and tool around the area while he was back in the States.

I'm not a jerk when it comes to BFR's, and tailor it to the needs of the Pilot. For example, if they travel a lot, I am going to lay more emphasis on cross-country nav and planning. If they just like to go up once a month, I'm going to focus more on crosswind landings.

Things like that. But, they are thorough, so that I can get an idea on their weaknesses (for recommendations on what to practice) and safety. They usually take about 3 hours at minimum.

So the guy comes in (like the ones most of us pilots we talk about because they stand out) : without local charts, a FAR/AIM, anything... except a headset.

So I sit down to feel him out and go over the oral. Now this isn't a checkride - I recognize that. But the guy didn't really have a grasp on the fundamentals beyond a basic level.

Eventually with a bit of guidance, I felt the review to be acceptable to continue to the flight portion.

The short story is, well, maybe not as short as it should be. We'll see.

On departure, noise abatement procedures were not recognized. Okay, that's manageable - advise the pilot for future departures. Then an abrupt turn against the flow of traffic at a very low altitude, high AOA, slow speed, uncoordinated to travel to another airport. Uncomfortable, but part of the daily grind.

Flew to the other airport, the wrong airport. That creates the scenario of position reports on the wrong CTAF, flying the pattern on the wrong side and attempting to land on a runway whose magnetic direction is different than the planned airport. I can overlook errors, but if you are approaching an airport with a runway number different than what it should be, it should raise a flag or two...

The rest of the flight was not that much better. Let's just say that I learned something too about preflighting...

The cowling plugs had fallen into the cowling and we had flown the entire flight with them sitting adjacent to the alternator belt...

Ultimately, I did not sign the BFR and got the typical, "I'll just take my business elsewhere" speech.

It flaberghasts me sometimes. Some folks just don't understand the guidance we are trying to give. You're not safe yet, lets schedule some time to review. It's not like another 3 hours is going to make or break my bank account.

Ooh, boss is back, gotta go.

 

[African_Swallow]

Well, the guys that I've had the most trouble identifying weaknesses with are the really smart ones that move through quickly. Everything went great with this guy; tell him once and it stuck. Consequently, I soloed him in a relatively short time and soon we were moving on and doing our first dual cross-country. One landing, a little bit of crosswind picked up a wing and started to wheelbarrel us over! It required my intervention to prevent an expensive landing fee. Needless to say, we reviewed crosswind landings in detail! Maybe it was a brainfart on his part, bad teaching on my part, or whatever....Take-home lesson for me: never take for granted what the guy in the seat next to you can do. You're still responsible for the flight! Continue to monitor and question/intervene whenever it doesn't look the way you'd do it.

 

[Douglas]

If I remember the fella correctly, he was from Europe, had flown in the US; just not for some time.

Wow, I think we had the same guy for a BFR, except my guy decided to drive to Raleigh himself. The NAS and communication requirements have really changed since the 80s he said! I couldn't agree more.

(not that he couldn't have gotten it, but he only had that one flight window to get it.)

 

[Stomp16]

Well I found that really early on, I would also want to jump into conversations between instructors more experienced than I. Since then I've learned it's sometimes better to sit back and listen.

Also... the more instructors you put in a plane, the more silly things become.

:yeahthat: Well said, especially the last line.

 

[mshunter]

*Facepalm*
Where the hell is that popcorn emoticon?

I was wondering the same thing?

Question:
Do you know why some birds stand on one leg?

I'll bite, why do some birds stand on 1 leg.