SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Still not buying your reasoning for disregarding pax comfort. Sounds like poor pilot technique.
Factual info from ERj145 off Runway in YOW Sept 2011.
- Thread starter Kingairer
- Start date
ClarkGriswold
Non Nutritive Cereal Varnish Engineer
I was being facetious about ever being there. Obviously you have.
SFCC/UND
Well-Known Member
Poor pilot technique? Seriously? So come back to me when you slide off a runway because you weren't aggressive when there was contamination on the runway. I would love to read your ntsb report.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
Professionally stated.
There was no excuse to go off the side of the runway in YOW, grooves or not. I'm a bit disappointed that Embraer sells a jet with reversers as an option.
Remember, you weren't talking about landing on a contaminated runway in your scenario. You were only talking about get-home-itis.
Then you brought up Midway:
Been to Chicago? The erj brakes when contaminated don't stop very well. So got to dump the reverses and slam on the brakes. Otherwise going to be a long taxi
So you moved the goalposts of your situation. Now we aren't landing on a long dry grooved runway. But for some reason you are still worried about a long taxi.
To each their own, but I stand by my original comment without your modifier. I would guess that it is possible to smoothly apply brakes and yet firmly get them to the "floor" to get max braking.
stormchaser
Well-Known Member
It's easy to armchair fly, but it's just as easy to put myself in these pilots' shoes. This video might as well be the very experience they faced...
"Runway in sight, 12 o'clock."
"Runway in sight...landing."
Let's remember this is NOT a guarantee to land.
Knowing how easy it can be to commit to land, especially below minimums or over the numbers, this is a healthy reminder for me to ALWAYS be ready and willing (and there is a difference) to go around.
But for the grace of God go I.
"Runway in sight, 12 o'clock."
"Runway in sight...landing."
Let's remember this is NOT a guarantee to land.
Knowing how easy it can be to commit to land, especially below minimums or over the numbers, this is a healthy reminder for me to ALWAYS be ready and willing (and there is a difference) to go around.
But for the grace of God go I.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
What brakes do you guys have? Because with the carbon brakes the thing stops on a dime as long as it isn't nil.
SFCC/UND
Well-Known Member
Really? I find that carbon doesn't do well with anything beyond fair.
Read first comment by gonzo page two. I wouldn't want to stay on a runway and use up the full 10,000 feet
Never mentioned Chicago midway. How did people come to the conclusion?
Somebody asked me if we get paid by the minute? I just said we get block. So why not get their early? I guess I should have done a better job with explaining my scenario. I feel like that a couple people weren't on the same page as me. Sorry..
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Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Outside of the one time in IND I have never had a problem getting it stopped in sub 4,500 feet. I have a few hours in the plane (3,200) and if you land it Vref +\- 5 you should have not problem getting it stopped in under 5,000 feet.
Kind in mind that was I ice covered runway with unreported nil.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Technique is really important with carbon brakes. They work kinda poorly until they're heated up and they wear faster when they're cold. So when you're landing, you basically need to stand on the brakes the second after you touch down. As they heat up they'll begin to work, and you gradually decrease pressure to keep a comfortable rate of deceleration. If you wait until you're already slowed down before touching the brakes, you're not going to have nearly as much stopping power. Another weird thing about carbon is that they wear a lot less when they're used warm then cold, so in the landing scenario you will use up less of the brakes getting on them on touchdown then if you wait and use them toward the end and they never really heat up.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
Exactly. It always puzzles me when I'm in the back and whoever is flying does stuff like that. As airline pilots we can't do aerobatics and low level stuff, but we can practice the art of being smooth.
Stomping on the brakes unnecessarily, ripping out the spoilers, dramatic power changes, etc... They're signs of a hack, not a smooth professional.
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
There's a time and a place for getting on the brakes. Contaminated runways or short fields, yeah. Beautiful day in LAX? No, unless you're a hack.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
When you force something in aviation it can easily bite you one day. Sacrificing an extra 5 minutes to reduce that risk is acceptable IMO.
Some people really need to be home a few minutes early for some reason. Had a captain on the last leg of a 4 day slam on the brakes after landing to make the taxiway leading directly into the ramp. A 737 in front of us had reported poor breaking. The briefing we talked about for the landing was to use reverse with braking as needed and not to force it. So much for that. GetHomeitis is bad with a lot of people.
Some people really need to be home a few minutes early for some reason. Had a captain on the last leg of a 4 day slam on the brakes after landing to make the taxiway leading directly into the ramp. A 737 in front of us had reported poor breaking. The briefing we talked about for the landing was to use reverse with braking as needed and not to force it. So much for that. GetHomeitis is bad with a lot of people.
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Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Nark
Macho Superpilot
Thats cuz your old!
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Yup! A byproduct of that LOUD cockpit!
GypsyPilot
Mohawk Town
So true. Often when I fly with commuters it seems like we're rushing back so they can catch their flight that leaves 30 mins or less from our sched arrival time. I am very sympathetic to them getting home ASAP, and I always offer to stay behind until the next crew arrives or to power down the a/c after the pax are off so they can bail ASAP. I've been in their shoes at times, and I totally get it.
But I can't stand the guys that do stuff like you're saying, or taxi at haul ass speed, etc. It's extra risk, and I just really don't have much tolerance with any extra risk and this job anymore.
I recently flew with a commuter that was super relaxed about the whole thing. His method was to not even bother looking at his early options home until after we arrived. He said he didn't want the pressure and stress. I thought it was a great strategy!
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J Cole
Well-Known Member
I'm going to agree with @Gonzo about the stopping ability of the 145. I have only 500ish hours in type, but the airplane will stop quickly. Our manual doesn't even allow us to use max reverse unless it will prevent a runway incursion or braking action is fair/poor and the correction is not taken on the landing distance card.
As stated previously, it is easy to armchair fly this accident, but the crew should have gone around when the Captain added full power. Unfortunately, there can be a lot of pressure in the 121 world to salvage a marginal approach when a go around is, in fact, a much safer option.
As stated previously, it is easy to armchair fly this accident, but the crew should have gone around when the Captain added full power. Unfortunately, there can be a lot of pressure in the 121 world to salvage a marginal approach when a go around is, in fact, a much safer option.