CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Oops! Struggling. That's what I get for typing and talking to someone at the same time.
FAA's Student Pilot Starts
- Thread starter BillErvin
- Start date
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BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
BillErvin
Peddling as fast as I can
I agree, but there are larger schools in most big cities across the country, and most have foreign students especially along the East and West coasts.
I grew up in GA from the time I was about 3 years old sitting in my dads lap in the front of my uncles J-3. I've spent my vacations at Sun &Fun and OSH for many years, So I'm hard a core GA guy. I see the same things and I'm glad its happening.
DITTO, I'm just looking at numbers and trying to figure out what it is I'm seeing. I'm not trying to be the bearer of doom and gloom or anything like that. Just trying to sort it out, but it would probably be better over:beer:
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Hi Guys,
When I had the pleasure of working with Mr. Murphy at our "slightly-larger-than-mom-n-pop" school, a fair percentage of our students were foreign, but I wouldn't call it the "vast majority".
Those were great days, Pat. We turned out a great product...if I do say so myself (a result of the 9/11 recession...we had lots of experience in our CFI cadre).
There are all kinds of "schools", and a different cadre of students:
1) You got the old "a guy" freelancing. I know a few of these guys. Highly experienced, lots of dual given, these guys write their own ticket, and usually (but not always) flying the clients aircraft. Where I am, these guys are getting $70-75/hr, ground and flight. Their clients are usually semi-immune to the economy...unless they invested with Bernie.
2) The FBO rental/school. Most of these places got their ticket punched after the 9/11 insurance/liability scare. Most of the few remaining FBO places I've seen "outsource" school activities to keep an arms legnth. Usually domestic students.
3) The mom'n'pop school. 1 or 2 airplanes...maybe 5. Maybe 141, maybe not. Usually a domestic crowd. Tighter visa rules usually precludes these places from getting foreign students unless someone is really off the beaten math.
4) The mid-sized school. Just starting to creep into the student load where processing visas becomes worth the time. Usually have a mix of domestic and foreign students. They usually run hand-to-mouth on the financing, so any hiccup in the economy usually causes havoc with them. However, some of these places morph into:
5) The wannabe mega school. A mid-sized school that got big, seemingly overnight. BIG foreign crowds because they can lure them over, and bingo, their committed because the students don't really know the lay of the land. They make their cash on the float they get from student deposits. The look big, but a casual look at the facilities reveals the "painted over look". These places can have some spectacular flameouts...as we have all seen, but rest assured, it isn't recent phenomenon. Back in the day, a place called Bolivar had nearly 100 airplanes, lots of students, then one day "poof"...locked doors.
6) The real mega school. The Flightsafety types. Lots of financial backing. Solid rep. Quality varies in this group, but usually has a lot of imports.
As far as the "GA" recovery. It's hard times where I am. A place that you had to 30 minute wait to get into VFR now has tumbleweeds blowing across the runwauy most times. And this is a major metro area.
NE is different...having spent quite a lot of time there. It is one of those states like TX or AK where the long distances and thin population make GA a more rational proposition. And, unless they've changed it, it is still quite legal to land on a state highway.
I hear a lot of concern about the 100LL issue. Planes that will run OK on 94UL are still changing hands, but people are nervous about anything that really needs 100LL. If you're brave, you can pick up a pre-restart T182 for not alot of money. The GAMI boys think they've come up with an all-petrol solution, but so many of these attempts have petered out, so I'm withholding my hope for that one.
Richman
When I had the pleasure of working with Mr. Murphy at our "slightly-larger-than-mom-n-pop" school, a fair percentage of our students were foreign, but I wouldn't call it the "vast majority".
Those were great days, Pat. We turned out a great product...if I do say so myself (a result of the 9/11 recession...we had lots of experience in our CFI cadre).
There are all kinds of "schools", and a different cadre of students:
1) You got the old "a guy" freelancing. I know a few of these guys. Highly experienced, lots of dual given, these guys write their own ticket, and usually (but not always) flying the clients aircraft. Where I am, these guys are getting $70-75/hr, ground and flight. Their clients are usually semi-immune to the economy...unless they invested with Bernie.
2) The FBO rental/school. Most of these places got their ticket punched after the 9/11 insurance/liability scare. Most of the few remaining FBO places I've seen "outsource" school activities to keep an arms legnth. Usually domestic students.
3) The mom'n'pop school. 1 or 2 airplanes...maybe 5. Maybe 141, maybe not. Usually a domestic crowd. Tighter visa rules usually precludes these places from getting foreign students unless someone is really off the beaten math.
4) The mid-sized school. Just starting to creep into the student load where processing visas becomes worth the time. Usually have a mix of domestic and foreign students. They usually run hand-to-mouth on the financing, so any hiccup in the economy usually causes havoc with them. However, some of these places morph into:
5) The wannabe mega school. A mid-sized school that got big, seemingly overnight. BIG foreign crowds because they can lure them over, and bingo, their committed because the students don't really know the lay of the land. They make their cash on the float they get from student deposits. The look big, but a casual look at the facilities reveals the "painted over look". These places can have some spectacular flameouts...as we have all seen, but rest assured, it isn't recent phenomenon. Back in the day, a place called Bolivar had nearly 100 airplanes, lots of students, then one day "poof"...locked doors.
6) The real mega school. The Flightsafety types. Lots of financial backing. Solid rep. Quality varies in this group, but usually has a lot of imports.
As far as the "GA" recovery. It's hard times where I am. A place that you had to 30 minute wait to get into VFR now has tumbleweeds blowing across the runwauy most times. And this is a major metro area.
NE is different...having spent quite a lot of time there. It is one of those states like TX or AK where the long distances and thin population make GA a more rational proposition. And, unless they've changed it, it is still quite legal to land on a state highway.
I hear a lot of concern about the 100LL issue. Planes that will run OK on 94UL are still changing hands, but people are nervous about anything that really needs 100LL. If you're brave, you can pick up a pre-restart T182 for not alot of money. The GAMI boys think they've come up with an all-petrol solution, but so many of these attempts have petered out, so I'm withholding my hope for that one.
Richman
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Sure, but think of all those people who'll re-discover the joys of riding the train when only the wealthy will be able to afford to fly
Richman
JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
True. My private cost about $3,000 in 1987. Can you get a private today for $5,500?
You could also go from zero to hero (CFI/II/MEI) with $15,000. Can you do it today for $27,900?
These numbers are using the official inflation rates.
Richman
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
I paid 5,100 for my private starting in the spring of 2006 and ending in the spring of 2007.
1969 172 from a mom'n'pop FBO in the middle of South Carolina.
1969 172 from a mom'n'pop FBO in the middle of South Carolina.
PilotBeckfizzle
Well-Known Member
I was in the $35,000-$38,000 range for Private to CFI/MEI.
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
You can still easily get your private for between 4000-4500 where I am.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Is that some sort of subsidized program or non-profit club or something?
Those prices are FAR from the norm.
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Cheap beat up 150s and 152s that go for 52 and 57 a hour. But they get the job done.
Theres 6 150s at 52 a hour ad 4 152s at 57 a hour. There is also 5 172s at 80 a hour and 2 182rgs at 145 a hour.
Theres 6 150s at 52 a hour ad 4 152s at 57 a hour. There is also 5 172s at 80 a hour and 2 182rgs at 145 a hour.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Ok, whatever works. I believe you.
I have no idea how anybody can put airworthy aircraft on the line, and provide good quality instruction, and carry proper insurance, and turn a profit, and do it all long term with prices like that.
But if your place has found a way to make it happen, good for them. As I said before...it's very atypical. I wouldn't tell the average person that a private pilot certificate can be safely obtained with $4500 at their local airport because I think in 99 out of 100 cases, it can't be.
thehobbit
Well-Known Member
Are those wet or dry rates?
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Well JHughz can elaborate on their airworthyness he flew here for awhile but lets just say I pick and choose which aircraft I will fly with people in. I think the owner makes most his money off renting the hangars and the houses built on the property. He owns the airport and the surrounding airpark which has I dunno maybe 20 houses or so. So thats where most the profits come from. Hes a older gentleman and once he passes I dont see the place staying around for long. Most want the flight school closed so the aircraft owners can have the airport to themselves.
As far as insurance last I knew he self insured the aircraft and makes all renters carry their own hull insurance at set amounts. He is very wealthy and hasnt had a problem with this method in the past with getting airplanes back online after crashes. He doesnt provide instruction. All instructors are independent contractors so he has no out of pocket costs there. He has a few full time A&Ps working for him as well keeping the fleet going so I'm guessing he saves money in the long term that way.
They are wet rates. If you take trips though he will only reimburse you at his whole sale cost of gas though so you loose money that way if you have to fill up yourself.
jrh
Well-Known Member
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Look, don't take this personally, but I'm gonna call it like I see it: That kind of operation is crap and I wish it would go away.
You pick and choose which aircraft you'd fly with people in?!? Even supposing it's ok for you, as a licensed pilot, to fly unairworthy aircraft (it's not!), how about John Doe off the street who doesn't know anything about flying and just wants to get his license? Does the school have no obligation to train him in airworthy aircraft?
When it comes to insurance, do you think renters fully understand that their medical bills will *not* be covered in the event of a crash with injuries? And are the airport neighbors cool with the idea of not being covered if one of the unairworthy aircraft crashes into their yard and hits their kid?
Finally, your last statement about getting airplanes back online after crashes blows me away. It sounds as though crashes are a semi-regular, semi-acceptable occurrence around there. That sort of record shouldn't even be up for discussion. I'd be interested in seeing accident statistics for your place compared to traditional flight academies. I know the college flight program I attended has an accident/incident free record for something like the past 12 years....and they fly about 4000-5000 hours/year.
In case you're wondering why I'm so wound up about this, it's because (aside from the ethical responsibilities I outlined above) places like yours make my life, running a legit flight school, more difficult. To do the job right, it takes a certain amount of money. I understand some people want to run a "low cost" flight school, and I'm fine with that. But I know the numbers, and I don't think a person can even run a low cost school for less than about $6500 for a private certificate. That's using basic, older, airworthy aircraft, carrying insurance, etc.
At the place I run, we quote $9k-$10k for a private certificate. Just last week I had a prospective customer tell me he'd decided not to train with us because his dad's flight instructor friend told him he could get a private license for $3500. I didn't even try to rebut that. I thanked him for his time and let him know we'd still be there if he'd like our help with anything in the future. In all honesty, I don't think it's fair to quote a new person numbers like that because it requires cutting corners they probably don't even know are getting cut.
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Its not so much the airplanes are unairworthy as a few of them just a worn out so bad they dont fly like they should. We get regular visits from the faa inspectors now so the planes are airworthy just a few are have upwards of 15,000 hours of the airframe. The mechanics do the best job they can to keep the fleet in the best possible shape but your talking about 150 and 152 that see over a 1000 hours a year for some of them.
I dont think anyone really understands how renters insurance works. It should be explained much better.
Since I have been there theres been about a crash a year. None of them were student pilots though. We have a very large local renter base of business and pleasure pilots. Generally its our weekend warriors who tend to find themselves in trouble. We dont have any required training other than a inital checkout in the airplanes to fly them. I dont agree with it. But once checked out and in the system you could not fly for 2 years, show up, and than get a plane and no one will ask questions. That tends to lead to the crashes I have seen. The last crash was a guy who hadnt flown in 18 months and when he came back to land he panicked and flipped off the end the runway. Its stuff like that they the new cheif instructor is trying to change. After that accident they have started to require mandatory training for winter flying and are talking about requiring mandatory once a year checkouts but it hasn't been implemented yet.
But how can you pick a number like 6500 without knowing how the flight school runs? We have income here that I'm sure your flight school probally doesnt. The owner owns the airport and gets rent from the 80+ hangars plus the 20 or so houses that are in the airpark. He doesnt really care about making money on the flight school he just wants a place for people to be able to fly for cheap. From what I understand he barely breaks even with the flight school but hes ok with that.
Overall yes there are changes that I would like to see made at where I fly. The airplanes we fly are older but it keeps costs low. In the past they had some issues with maintence but now the FAA sends guys out about every other week so things have gotten better. But without this school alot of the people who fly here just wouldn't fly. Most of them couldnt afford to pay 100 dollars a hour for a airplane. Some of us younger guys who are becoming flight instructors are hoping to change some the bad habits at the school but I'm not convicned that this school is bad for aviation.
jrh
Well-Known Member
What do you mean by, "don't fly like they should,"? That sounds like "unairworthy" to me. If a plane is properly rigged, airframe is straight, control surfaces aren't damaged, etc...the thing will fly like it did the day it came off the factory line. If it doesn't, that means something is messed up with it.
An airplane with high time is no excuse for not being 100% safe, functional, and airworthy. You can talk to the guys at Ameriflight about this one.
You've got to be freaking kidding me. One crash per year??? That is unacceptable. Period.
I don't care if none of them were students. I don't care what the currency procedures were (or in this case, *weren't*). Having a crash a year is ridiculous.
I'm all for giving people the freedom to control their own lives, but I don't think it's responsible to give any old Joe who hasn't flown in two years, yet managed to scrape together $30, the keys to an airplane.
This issue goes to the heart of what I suspect is a poor "safety culture" on both the part of the renter pilots as well as the management.
I'm fine with the owner not turning a profit. That's for him to decide.
Even considering a break even operation, I stand by my $6500 quote. I say that because I know the cost of fuel. I know the cost of maintenance. I know the cost of carrying an engine reserve. I know the cost of insurance. I don't care to break it all down by the hour, but trust me, if there were a cheaper way to do it, I'd be all ears.
I'm only assuming now, but I suspect the FAA sends guys out every other week because of questionable maintenance and planes crashing on a yearly basis. The FAA rarely scrutinizes operations that closely if it's clear there's nothing to scrutinize.
Heck, my school is literally just down the ramp from a FSDO. You know when we see the feds? When they come *rent* our planes for their own currency flying.
If you're not convinced a place with that sort of record is bad for aviation, that's fine. I don't know how many crashes it will take to convince you otherwise. Maybe a few fatalities would help?
Personally, I'm the kind of guy who says, "If you're going to do something, do it right." Of course, I know "doing it right" is a subjective position, but I don't see how this school you're talking about can be considered "doing it right" by any metric other than "make it really, really, really cheap." It sounds like the McDonalds of flying. Sure, you can get filled up for cheap, but you're putting the lowest grade, unhealthiest stuff possible in to your body. I'd rather skip lunch than eat McD's. Same with that sort of flight school...I'd rather a person stay on the ground than expose themselves to that type of flying environment.
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Well I respect your opinion on the matter. I've never flown at a big school. The two places I fly is the flight school in question and at a non profit glider club. Both operations are run fairly simliar so thats what I'm used to. As I said I'm pushing for changes at this school to update alot of the old practices and make it a safer but it all takes time. I hope in a year or two people will say wow things have really changed there for the better but who knows. I will be working on the both the flight instructon and matinence side this year and hopefully can get some much needed change done. If not than I have at least tried. I agree with you on if your going to do it, do it right but it takes time to convince this owner to change things over. Hes owned this flight school since 1965. And he has this view that if it had lasted this long I must be doing something right. It takes time to change this attitude.
jrh
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know how that goes. Once ruts form, both good and bad, it's hard to get out of them.
And nothing I said is directed at you personally. From everything I've seen on the forums here, I think you're an ok guy.
I just feel strongly about schools such as the one in question.