FAA’s diversity push includes focus on hiring people with ‘severe intellectual’ and ‘psychiatric’ disabilities

trafficinsight said:
Same squadron, several months later.

Let's talk about the Navy putting unqualified males in F-14 cockpits!
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Nobody has to have a congressional hearing when we try to fail a man out of flight school. Their packet doesn’t go to the Star in the chain it goes to the Full bird for final decision.

Again, tell me the standards weren’t lowered for Kara or the other pilot listed in that report and you can dismiss it all. You can’t so you simply aren’t acknowledging the evidence in front of you like I pulled it from the New York Post or Wikipedia… oh wait.


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Lawman said:
It wasn’t “difficult to fly” according to people who actually did it.

She was a previously winged aviator in the A6, so it’s not like she wasn’t going into this and thrown to the wolves of some widow maker.
You quoted a Wiki article, I quoted a report that contains those same statements as well as the stuff that gets edited out of Wikipedia. You know like the whole comment by an Admiral about the manipulation of simulator testing to produce a result that cleared her of any connection and blamed the TF30 and not pilot technique.

Go read the report and come back with why we shouldn’t believe there was a demonstrated action within the Navy to pass people forward on lines of gender. Tell us what evidence you have for those of us that have seen DEI initiatives bend or break standards that the tradition of doing such doesn’t exist.


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I’m going to jump in and say that I can fully believe that these things have happened, and could well continue to happen. My question, after conceding those points is, do you believe that those initiatives should be abandoned because of those failures/mistakes?
 
SteveC said:
I’m going to jump in and say that I can fully believe that these things have happened, and could well continue to happen. My question, after conceding those points is, do you believe that those initiatives should be abandoned because of those failures/mistakes?
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I believe those systems are just as likely and actively are being abused currently to swing the pendulum the other way for sake of political points and not for the military’s overriding pursuit in generating combat power.

This gets into those “who watches the watchers” dynamic.

The attempt at reducing or removing the swim qualification in special forces or changing ruck requirements to be more suitable for stature and body inclusion were probably the most egregious attempt at that. Those are largely seen as the biggest barriers to getting demographics balanced in a way that meets desire to produce more high echelon representation of minorities and women. It’s no secret that Special Operations is a major qualifier for high ends of command progression. If you’re a DEI centric bureaucrat in the halls of politics and want things like a Chief of Staff of the Army who is more representative that’s a major pipeline to adapt in order to achieve that. You’ll notice they aren’t suggesting more substantive and fair and equal actions like opening more public pools in neighborhoods of color or funding Civil Air Patrol squadrons in places they can’t self sustain to spark aviation interest early.

It’s not 1978 where we are introducing the first ____ fighter pilot into X service. We’ve all met the girl that can hang or the dude from neighborhood wherever that just needed their shot and wouldn’t be there in 1952. That’s not to say we haven’t also met the no child left behind and having participated in the making of the sausage I’ve seen just how hard it is to throw that guy out, it’s a problem when as I said the goal is to be the best. This is a contact sport.


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Lawman said:
Nobody has to have a congressional hearing when we try to fail a man out of flight school. Their packet doesn’t go to the Star in the chain it goes to the Full bird for final decision.

Again, tell me the standards weren’t lowered for Kara or the other pilot listed in that report and you can dismiss it all. You can’t so you simply aren’t acknowledging the evidence in front of you like I pulled it from the New York Post or Wikipedia… oh wait.


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Kinda sounds like the standards weren't very high at all, honestly.

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You know the difference between this guy and Hultgreen?

His airplane had nothing wrong with it when he flew it into the ground.
 
trafficinsight said:
Kinda sounds like the standards weren't very high at all, honestly.

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You know the difference between this guy and Hultgreen?

His airplane had nothing wrong with it when he flew it into the ground.
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Her airplane had nothing wrong with it. That was in the report I posted. She flew it into an issue via technique.

If you’ve got to lie to make your point and keep posting snips from old news reports that aren’t fact checked or Wikipedia there’s no point in pretending you care to argue with actual facts and evidence, much less apply it to the wider issue of DEI manipulation of standards to advance an agenda.

And you left out the part where they immediately relieved the commander of the Squadron after the Nashville crash.


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Lawman said:
Her airplane had nothing wrong with it. That was in the report I posted. She flew it into an issue via technique.

If you’ve got to lie to make your point and keep posting snips from old news reports that aren’t fact checked or Wikipedia there’s no point in pretending you care to argue with actual facts and evidence, much less apply it to the wider issue of DEI manipulation of standards to advance an agenda.

And you left out the part where they immediately relieved the commander of the Squadron after the Nashville crash.


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Don't spar with an ignoramus, it's not worth your time. I can say this as a monumental ignoramus, I'm not very bright.
 
trafficinsight said:
Kinda sounds like the standards weren't very high at all, honestly.

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You know the difference between this guy and Hultgreen?

His airplane had nothing wrong with it when he flew it into the ground.
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Hultgren’s issue was substandard performance in the Tomcat, and an eventual pilot error in the final turn that wasn’t compensated for correctly.

Bates’ problem was he was an average flyer at best, but had serious flight discipline issues that were never addressed.

While the end results of both are the same, they are of two largely different causal factor paths. Both were ultimately failures in command.
 
Weird stuff happened in the early 1990s. There are guys still around who remember Hultgreen. And to @trafficinsight 's exhibit, he got the entire NFO to pilot transition program shut down for a number of years, because the gist was he was incompetent and so must be others. I don't know if that proves a point or doesn't, but you cite a mishap that wasn't without significant controversy or knee-jerk reacting. I know a guy who's orders to pilot training (was a BN on A-6's at the time) were cancelled as a result of this.

I will say I have seen first-hand, the poor results of scenarios where folks went to a particular training pipeline without earning it in grades. It has never ended well, from what I've seen. One instance resulted in a completely unnecessary IG investigation and their ultimate removal from training (though ending a career of an innocent senior officer in the process, who did absolutely nothing wrong or discriminatory.....investigation just put him in purgatory long enough that he was passed over for assignments he would have received once his name was fully cleared), and the other basically resulted in the logical conclusion of that aviator failing out of multiple pipelines, and then eventually being FNAEB'd and removed from flying status. Another example long before my time, was FedEx 705. The attempted murderer/assailant was a one-time attrite from NAS Meridian/Navy advanced jet training for incompetence and grossly unsatisfactory performance in the syllabus.
 
Lawman said:
Her airplane had nothing wrong with it. That was in the report I posted. She flew it into an issue via technique.
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An overshooting final that one tries to wrap around and salvage, normally uncoordinated, can easily induce a compressor stall. Some aircraft designs and some engines, were particularly susceptible to this. The TF30 on the Tomcat, and the TF34 on the A-10, for two.
 
MikeD said:
An overshooting final that one tries to wrap around and salvage, normally uncoordinated, can easily induce a compressor stall. Some aircraft designs and some engines, were particularly susceptible to this. The TF30 on the Tomcat, and the TF34 on the A-10, for two.
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Her mom had pretty deep pockets and connections, and tried to find an avenue to blame the manufacturer. In the end, it wasn't successful. This was a known problem, that wouldn't be resolved until the re-engined F-14D (and F-14A+/F-14B) hit the fleet many years later. My wife doesn't get to sue Boeing when I exceed the limitations of the F/A-18 or 737 and something bad happens.
 
I want to point out that I felt dirty going after people who served and died, but I didnt start it and my point was only to show the difference in narrative.
 
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