FAA retools rules to keep pilots trained, refreshed

I got insomnia pretty bad on a trip once. I saw alot of people with sleep issues on long trips hopping alot of time zones, but I had never had problems until this one trip 3 years into the game. I went almost 5 days with little to no sleep; maybe 3 or 4 hours.

Actually went to a flight doc in Incirlik and he let me stay on the crew but gave me some pills to take that night to sleep. There I was sitting in the hotel in Cairo, making some toony fish sammies, took the pill first, woke up the next morning on the floor wondering what happened. Best night of sleep on a floor eva!
 
I sincerely hope they attack the rest and duty hours rather than suggest we start popping pills or taking naps in the cockpit. If the airplane is certified for two pilots, why encourage one to "nod off" during operation of the aircraft? I've heard some BAD stuff on the addictive side of Ambien as well. Brother-in-law took it for a while, and he had a hard time going off it. I think that's a bad road to start down.
 
I agree with Polar. I agree that it will increase the costs of runnin an operation and I can see pay coming out of pilots pockets. I wont believe anything until I see it. Why wont an airline hire more fo's for peanuts .. but instead they will overwork the people already there...
 
Just had another thought on the "nap" thing. Out of DTW, some of our guys are looking at 6 leg days. Some of those legs are less than 30 minutes. How are you gonna get a nap on THAT? On those 6 day legs, you're looking at nearly 14 hours of duty, likely followed by a 9 hour RR overnight. Either that or you're coming OFF a 9 hour RR overnight.

As for airlines not hiring FOs and pushing the people they have to the limit, look no further than Pinnacle airlines right now. Junior FOs are routinely being knocked down to 8 days off a month thanks to JMs and extensions, and I've had to refuse extensions just to keep my 10 days off. Even then, I've had 3 months so far this month that got taken down to 9 days off. They already tried to extend me into my day off on Friday.
 
Ambien is a life saver. I love the stuff (used according to a Dr.'s orders). It has made a difference in my life.

I've heard that it can cause some really vivid and crazy dreams and nightmares. Have you experienced any of that? Any problems with drowsiness after waking up?

naps in the cockpit to "fix" the problems? Are we going to RFO's on RJ's now? Give us a real overnight (equivalent of normal rest without the reduced rest BS). I'm not condoning 18 hour overnights for regional guys, but 10 hours should be the min.

I like the idea of approving short naps. NASA has been pushing this idea for well over a decade based on their extensive research.

Are things so unsafe as to warrant major changes?

Yes, without a doubt.
 
I like the idea of approving short naps. NASA has been pushing this idea for well over a decade based on their extensive research.


Personally, I'd rather have a longer overnight mandated rather than "naps" being allowed on the flight deck. Like someone else said, what's to keep the other guy from dozing off at the same time? Also, fact is a lot of regional flights aren't even long enough for this. It would have to be done about 10K, and I know on a lot of flights out of DTW, you don't even SEE 10K. Things like MEM-HSV, MEM-BTR, MEM-GPT and even MEM-TLH wouldn't even have you above 10K long enough to get 20 minutes of nap time. You've got other things to do like preparing for the approach, getting the ATIS, landing numbers, etc. Per the checklists, that should all be done prior to descending through FL180. Seems to me like the FAA and NTSB might be bending under management pressure.
 
I like the idea of approving short naps. NASA has been pushing this idea for well over a decade based on their extensive research.


.

The best part about the King Air is that the coffee decanter is within arms reach of the cockpit.
 
Looks like there has finally been enough blood spilled. The FAA is here to help us now.

Unfortunately, this is often the case. Unless the bodies pile up, nobody cares.

And I think it helps that the FAA chief is a former pilot.
 
Id love to see our congressmen and women, people from the FAA headquarters and the airline management who are sleeping with the faa take a few 4 day trips out of a major hub and get paid what regional pilots do. Its all about the bottom line.
 
Personally, I'd rather have a longer overnight mandated rather than "naps" being allowed on the flight deck

I believe they're considering it in addition to revised rest/duty requirements, not as a substitute for them. Everything I've been getting from Herndon points to a very high likelihood of new rest/duty regulations when all of the dust settles.
 
No way in hell. Talk about using a bandaid instead of fixing the problem. I'm not going to take legal drugs to "fix" my circadian rhythm when scheduling decides to flip me from days to nights.

Agreed.

I'll pass on popping pills.

I suppose it's only wishful thinking to expect companies to have to recall to now staff whatever new regulations are coming down.
 
Wouldn't it be nice if ALPA did too.

I don't know where you've been, but ALPA has been pushing this issue for decades. It took some spilled blood and a pro-labor administration in the White House that appointed a former ALPA President as FAA Administrator to finally make it happen.
 
Personally, I'd rather have a longer overnight mandated rather than "naps" being allowed on the flight deck. Like someone else said, what's to keep the other guy from dozing off at the same time? Also, fact is a lot of regional flights aren't even long enough for this. It would have to be done about 10K, and I know on a lot of flights out of DTW, you don't even SEE 10K. Things like MEM-HSV, MEM-BTR, MEM-GPT and even MEM-TLH wouldn't even have you above 10K long enough to get 20 minutes of nap time. You've got other things to do like preparing for the approach, getting the ATIS, landing numbers, etc. Per the checklists, that should all be done prior to descending through FL180. Seems to me like the FAA and NTSB might be bending under management pressure.


I always breif my F/O's at the beginning of a trip:
"Don't let me wake-up and catch you asleep."
 
I've heard that it can cause some really vivid and crazy dreams and nightmares. Have you experienced any of that? Any problems with drowsiness after waking up?
I dunno about Ambien, I think it can vary from person to person. My Dad took that stuff for awhile and he hated how it made him feel, he said it made him feel like a zombie when he was awake and had the same complaint about dreams. I know it works for a lot of folks, but not all of them.
 
I like the idea of approving short naps. NASA has been pushing this idea for well over a decade based on their extensive research.

Have you've ever been in a position to legally take a nap while operating a flight?

There's theory, and then practice.

Naps in the cockpit, or even an approved crew rest area, especially on short flights (arbitrarily I'll use 9 hours or less of block) sound great.

Let's examine an actual example I've seen put on this site, in addition to my experiences in my short time in long haul.

Everyone complains, and rightfully so, about 8 hours not being enough off duty time. Many times people will say that they need time to turn off work, and relax. I agree, and I require the same.

Now apply this thought in a practical sense. First, in my environment. My last trip ended up with an 8+20 or so block back to ANC, with an actual flight time of 7+40. Obviously we needed 3 people. So, let's look at what our staffing requirements for the flight are. You haYou need to be upfront for the 1st hour out and 1 hour prior to landing, so that leaves 5+40. You have 2 seats to fill, so that means it's 11+20 to have butts in the chairs. Divide that by 3 and I come up with 3+45 or so per person in the chair. That means you have 3+45 for a nap. So you get up, hit the blue room, grab some water, crawl into the bunk, and try to tone out the SA picture you have going on.

Now, what can keep you from getting into a quick nap? Maybe you had an abnormal during takeoff or climbout, or the weather is shady at the destination and alternate and you're tight on gas.

Maybe you, and the rest of your crew, got a great night's sleep prior to showing up to work. Are you going to nap after being awake for 4 hours after sleeping 10 or 11?

Let's look at another scenario that our crews look at. It's not the one sector long haul, it's a 14+20 day with 4 pilots, but on two legs. One is about 7+45 to a 1+30 turn then a 6+30 leg. Much more fatiguing. Then you get maybe an 1.5 or 2 hours for a nap if the CA chooses to divide the rest on the legs. Of course, it's better to sleep a whole leg, but the CA may not want that, since they need to be in the front seat for T/O and landing, and the FOs rotate. Add to that there are several "call ahead so we don't shoot your ass" FIRS where you are crossing boundaries that they don't like each other, and in FIRS where you have to use HF within one of the largest cities of the world, and the VHF frequencies are so clogged and sporadic on coverage you just chug along NORDO.

Not so easy to tune out and turn off there.

I can rack out with the best of them, and get startled quite awake by that evil call chime. I have the comfort of a stateroom we can control the temperature in with a nice matress, linens, pillows and blankets. The works. I stil have problems sometimes dozing right off.

Looking back, I couldn't imagine flying the Jumbo Shrimp, passing out somewhere around GSP and waking up in Alabama. Maybe being startled awake by the master caution or a spot of turbulence. I'm sure the reflex action could be quite disconcerting. Just falling asleep in a cockpit seat is tough enough. You have to be pretty fatigued to fall asleep in such a tight space.

I'm sure NASA collected some data, and all the things point to us being able to fly one 9 hour sector. I mean you could fly a "3 man cockpit" for 12 hours, but only 2 of the "men" were qualified to fly the joint. So you had 3 fatigued bodies in a widebody hurling through the air at .88M (gas was cheap) for 12 hours at a time on a fuel critical mission. Ugh....

The guys that have been there, done that have told me enough horror stories that I don't even want to walk the road.
 
Then again, Ambian, you might be my best friend:

http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/sleep/2009/05/08/how-sleep-sex-and-other-parasomnias-can-get-you-in-trouble-with-the-law.html said:
[edited to leave out the boring crap]
<snip boring="" crap="">Sleep sex. Sexsomnia, aka sleep sex, causes people to engage in sexual behaviors while asleep. Those behaviors might simply be sexual noises or dirty talk, or they might involve masturbation, fondling, or even initiating intercourse. Sleep sex may have played a factor in dozens of legal cases that have been referred to Sleep Forensics Associates, a group formed by Cramer Bornemann, Schenck, and a colleague of theirs in 2006. While sexsomnia might not have caused the alleged criminal act in every case, sleep sex does seem to be among the most legally problematic of parasomnias, Schenck says.


I'd hate to 1) have crew mates that I'd have to, ahem, wake up to :blowkiss::love::tease: and 2) be an HR person.:eek:




I'm just sayin'....
</snip>
 
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