FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule

USMCmech said:
Always!


The only real losers here will be CFI pay.

Since almost all pilots will be forced to instruct to build flight time there will be a glut of supply in that field.
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I agree that anything that can be done with less than 1500 hours will pay virtually nothing. I have had lower time people asking me my opinion of this 1500 hour rule for about 6 months now. I said that they really did not want my opinion. The asked why. I answered, "Because, I have more than 1500 hours. I think that it is a great rule."
 
mojo6911 said:
You guys should be in favor of just about any legislation which makes it more difficult to become a pilot, if you are already a pilot. DUCY?
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Change that to any regulation that makes it more difficult to become a ATP, if you already are an ATP, or will be prior to August of 2013, yes.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Yeah, the freight guys totally got shafted. No way to tap dance around that unless they didn't intend for that to happen and write in some sort of exemption. I'd highly recommend that we all "vote early and vote often" in the comments.

With that said, I am also surprised by how relatively un-gutted the rest of it was. Guess the puppymills are hurtin for bribe money.
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Look, im all with you and Pat that the freight guys are getting the shaft, but we all know none of us are prolly going to be going to a 121 operator with direct entry captain gigs. If there were any 1900 135 caps that were shooting for a street captain job at a bottom feeder, well then, good riddance.

I guess my point is, if i decided to go 121 it wouldnt be for an op that hired street captains. Then again, ive pretty much come to terms with the fact that ill be relegated to the "float plane cowboy krue" for the rest of my career anyway.

In the end yes, freight guys got the shaft, but what does it matter? What difference will it make? My biggest two gripes are the new requirements for ATP, since i was aiming to be the world's second highest time pilot with a comm. license, and the discount in hours given to university programs. The former for obvious reasons, and the latter would take a 200 page essay of ERAU proportions to explain exactly why they shouldn't be eligible for 1000 hour ATP.

I just kind of think its ironic that some of the most vocal voices are the ones who are waaay past the point of it mattering anyway, (myself included. ) Yeah, its insulting to have the FAA say "your time aint worth dick," but then again, i've gotten pretty used to the fact that most people dont really give a rat's ass about this side of aviation anyway.
 
Newflash: you aren't entitled to a direct entry captain slot just because you've flown around single pilot 135. Direct entry captains in a 121 environment are a bad idea for anyone, let alone someone with zero part 121 experience. Everyone should have to spend some time in the right seat of that operation before they're allowed to command in it.

This debate is ridiculous.
 
ryanmickG said:
Not fair.

I have my ATP and I will be the first to say that the requirements are a joke and the standards should be raised.
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You'll be first in line for the retests then? ;)

I have a feeling I'm going to get within sight of it and then the bar is going to move... oh well, I've waited 31 years, I suppose I can wait two more, it's not like I hate what I'm doing, and the paycheck I get sure is nice... for now I guess.

It does get on my nerves that because I decided not to shell out 200k in student loans for Riddle or some such I'm getting the shaft.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Newflash: you aren't entitled to a direct entry captain slot just because you've flown around single pilot 135. Direct entry captains in a 121 environment are a bad idea for anyone, let alone someone with zero part 121 experience. Everyone should have to spend some time in the right seat of that operation before they're allowed to command in it.

This debate is ridiculous.
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I'll agree with you, but not for the same reasons. You wanna be captain? Wait your turn. That's fine. I think what's irking everyone is that the Feds are basically saying that someone with 1000 hours SIC 121 is more qualified than than someone with 10,000 PIC 135.

I completely agree everyone should sit in the right seat and learn, but this has basically come down to "part warfare."

99% of the time 99% of the people bitching about this will never be in the position to go into a direct entry captain gig, including me. The problem is the Feds have basically put down on paper what everyone holds as the stereo type anyway: 135 SP are dangerous, and it's dumb luck you haven't killed yourself. You're lucky enough to fly boxes and you'll never fly pax until we brainwash the cowboy out of you.

At least that's how my simple mind perceives it anyway.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Newflash: you aren't entitled to a direct entry captain slot just because you've flown around single pilot 135. Direct entry captains in a 121 environment are a bad idea for anyone, let alone someone with zero part 121 experience. Everyone should have to spend some time in the right seat of that operation before they're allowed to command in it.

This debate is ridiculous.
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I'm not worried about the DE captain slots disappearing, chances are those are a thing of the past for the most part anyway. What will suck is when guys who've been flying 1900s, Metros, Cargo Saabs, Cargo Brasilias, or stripped down Dash 8s for dynamic go to an outfit, and can't upgrade with their seniority because their time doesn't count. I may be a moot point, and yes, everyone is going to require time in the seat, but 1000hrs? C'mon, it doesn't take 1000 hrs to learn a jet and scheduled 121 rules. What is the difference between a guy flying a cargo saab in a 2 crew environment on adhoc trips and a guy doing the same thing on scheduled runs for Mesaba? I mean, hell, the ad hoc stuff is probably better experience - yet, it doesn't count any more.

A guy I know is an unbelievably good pilot. Flew cargo for years, got a 1900 type rating, and went to a cargo 121 operator to fly 737s. The guy was so good he upgraded in a years time (they upgrade based on a mix of seniority and merit there) with around 500hrs in type. This would not be possible under the new schema. Or, for a more seniority based method, imagine a guy flying for Empire with years and years of experience. He's been flying the caravan, and now has the seniority to hold an ATR captain position, he's motivated, talented, and capable, but he's not able toe even bid the run without sitting in the right seat for multiple years - probably to a guy who's junior to him. What about a cargo guy with oodles of hours in multi turbine airplanes who gets let go from his job because the company goes under. He goes to a regional so that he can stay close to home, but has to suffer both the paycut and a multi-year upgrade time with guys junior to him upgrading before him because those guys have that magic "time met by 121, 135.243a1, or 91k." It isn't right, and it isn't even logical. It's an arbitrary selection.

121 isn't that different from 135. I can't speak from operational experience, but I've read through the regs. It's just flying airplanes, dealing with dispatch, atc, and weather. Hell, in 135, a lot of companies don't have a very effective or usable dispatch office. Now, jet experience may be critical - everyone seems to say that, I'll let you know my take after flying one - but a guy moving from a 1900/Metro/Brasilia/Saab in the cargo world doesn't need 1000hrs of being SIC to succesfully and safely fly a Q400, DHC8, Saab, ATR, or a Brasilia and under the new laws it'd be required.

Will this make things safer? Hell yeah, and I'm glad it's going to be a reality. Is it a slap to the face of cargo guys, who could theoretically be flying the exact same equipment? You damn right it is.
 
ppragman said:
I'm not worried about the DE captain slots disappearing, chances are those are a thing of the past for the most part anyway. What will suck is when guys who've been flying 1900s, Metros, Cargo Saabs, Cargo Brasilias, or stripped down Dash 8s for dynamic go to an outfit, and can't upgrade with their seniority because their time doesn't count. I may be a moot point, and yes, everyone is going to require time in the seat, but 1000hrs? C'mon, it doesn't take 1000 hrs to learn a jet and scheduled 121 rules. What is the difference between a guy flying a cargo saab in a 2 crew environment on adhoc trips and a guy doing the same thing on scheduled runs for Mesaba? I mean, hell, the ad hoc stuff is probably better experience - yet, it doesn't count any more.

A guy I know is an unbelievably good pilot. Flew cargo for years, got a 1900 type rating, and went to a cargo 121 operator to fly 737s. The guy was so good he upgraded in a years time (they upgrade based on a mix of seniority and merit there) with around 500hrs in type. This would not be possible under the new schema. Or, for a more seniority based method, imagine a guy flying for Empire with years and years of experience. He's been flying the caravan, and now has the seniority to hold an ATR captain position, he's motivated, talented, and capable, but he's not able toe even bid the run without sitting in the right seat for multiple years - probably to a guy who's junior to him. What about a cargo guy with oodles of hours in multi turbine airplanes who gets let go from his job because the company goes under. He goes to a regional so that he can stay close to home, but has to suffer both the paycut and a multi-year upgrade time with guys junior to him upgrading before him because those guys have that magic "time met by 121, 135.243a1, or 91k." It isn't right, and it isn't even logical. It's an arbitrary selection.

121 isn't that different from 135. I can't speak from operational experience, but I've read through the regs. It's just flying airplanes, dealing with dispatch, atc, and weather. Hell, in 135, a lot of companies don't have a very effective or usable dispatch office. Now, jet experience may be critical - everyone seems to say that, I'll let you know my take after flying one - but a guy moving from a 1900/Metro/Brasilia/Saab in the cargo world doesn't need 1000hrs of being SIC to succesfully and safely fly a Q400, DHC8, Saab, ATR, or a Brasilia and under the new laws it'd be required.

Will this make things safer? Hell yeah, and I'm glad it's going to be a reality. Is it a slap to the face of cargo guys, who could theoretically be flying the exact same equipment? You damn right it is.
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I think at empire you get to keep your captain pay from the 208 for 18 months as an fo on the atr

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
 
cmill said:
I'll agree with you, but not for the same reasons. You wanna be captain? Wait your turn. That's fine. I think what's irking everyone is that the Feds are basically saying that someone with 1000 hours SIC 121 is more qualified than than someone with 10,000 PIC 135.

I completely agree everyone should sit in the right seat and learn, but this has basically come down to "part warfare."

99% of the time 99% of the people bitching about this will never be in the position to go into a direct entry captain gig, including me. The problem is the Feds have basically put down on paper what everyone holds as the stereo type anyway: 135 SP are dangerous, and it's dumb luck you haven't killed yourself. You're lucky enough to fly boxes and you'll never fly pax until we brainwash the cowboy out of you.

At least that's how my simple mind perceives it anyway.
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That's because for the TYPE of operation, you are more qualified.

10,000 hours of PIC time in a part 135 operation, even if it goes in the same column of your logbook, doesn't qualify you to sidestep into part 121 operations. Is it great prep time? Sure is, but it's not equivalent. And if you DO have 10,000 hours of PIC time in a part 135 operation, you'll know enough to understand that 1,000 hours (12-18 months) of learning the ropes of the new operation is a drop in the bucket.

We're not talking about being qualified as a pilot generally, we're talking about being qualified as a pilot for a specific type of operation. Netjets, a part 91K outfit, operates exactly like an airline, and that's why those hours are going to be counted. I'm willing to bet there are exceptions for operations like Amflight, Airnet and Cape, too. But the crusty guy from some no name 135 operation flying a Cessna 172 around hauling checks WON'T have his time count. And if you think that guy doesn't exist, he does! Or at least did, he was taking Amflight runs back in 2007.
 
Sorry, guys, but 1,000 hours is not a lot of time. I don't know why anyone thinks that that is an undue burden. You can get 1,000 hours in the operation in 12-18 months. I don't care if your seniority can hold captain in less than that amount of time (unlikely), you still shouldn't be able to do it. You need to be in that operation, being in and out of the airline's various stations over and over again, becoming familiar with the operational quirks, etc. Thinking that you should be able to go to the left seat at an airline in under a year is ridiculous. Where does this sense of entitlement come from?
 
We have street CAs here, and while it annoys me to no end, they do fine.

I've got plenty of 135 experience alongside my 121 experience, and I disagree that they're wildly dissimilar.

Also, and this is being said directly to ATN and jtrain, nobody in this thread thinks they should be able to walk into a 121 carrier as a street CA. The issue at hand is why certain types of 135 operations are seen as inferior to others when making a move into 121. My time in a 402 counts, but Boris' time in an MU2 doesn't?

Also, 1,000 hours in my 121 operation is 3-5 years depending on your fleet.

That is all. :)
 
It is my observation that most people think their path to this job is the best/only way here. Somehow we all believe we deserve to move straight to the left seat of a 747 because "damnit, look at all the stuff I've gone through!" I'm going to take the unpopular view and say I think this new regulation is a good idea for many reasons.

Yes, I was hired into the right seat of an RJ at 660 hours. I was very lucky to be in that position. I wasn't there because I had some sort of great ability as a pilot, but because the pool of qualified applicants had dried up. I was hired because I had a pulse. Training was hard, but ASA has a great training department who knew what kind of pilots they were dealing with and taught accordingly.

Needing 1500 hours to be hired at a regional is not an abnormal thing. It is my understanding that low timers going straight to the right seat is not how this industry has worked for most of its existence. I understand that it is a few more hoops to jump through, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

Look at a the advertising for most of the flight schools out there. How many market themselves on the quality of their instruction vs. how quickly they can get you a job? Look at how most people (myself included) study for FAA written exams. Teach the test vs. actually having a solid grasp on the material. The system is broken.

1500 hours is a drop in the bucket. If this rule came into effect when I was still a flight instructor, it would have slowed me down by a year at the most. I know it doesn't seem like it while you are still training, but hours pile up quickly once you are doing it professionally. On top of that you're getting paid. More importantly you are gaining experience. I wouldn't say that I was a "good" pilot until I was actively working as a flight instructor for a few months. Until that point, every check ride was an unsure thing. Sure I had performed all the maneuvers adequately in the past, but who knows how the check ride would turn out. Now, the flying part of the check ride is the easy part. I own the airplane, it does what I want it to do. All the time.

Then there is the ATP course in the NPR. I fail to see how being required to learn about multi crew environments, high speed/altitude aerodynamics, etc that are required for this job is a bad thing. There are a lot of things that transfer over from a light GA airplane to flying a jet/turboprop. But there are also a lot of things that you will have had zero experience with. This is an entirely different kind of flying altogether.

This rule won't stop anyone who is truly motivated to to this for a living. If you really have a passion for flying, the extra education will actually be a good experience, as long as you make it a point to slow down and enjoy the journey. However, there are a lot of people who simply want to be an airline pilot for the title. They're the ones who will be weeded out. If we're truthful with ourselves, this job isn't currently that difficult to attain. The most difficult part is the financial aspect of it. If you have money/credit and a little persistence, anybody can find a job at a regional.

I think that is part of why this profession has become what it is today. In the past this profession was filled with people who were passionate about the job, always trying to increase their skills. But now there are a lot of people in our ranks who do this simply because "they thought it would be cool." I hope that these will be the ones that are weeded out. Not to sound like one to pull up the ladder, I think decreasing the quantity but increasing the quality of the pilot pool in this country will lead to good things.
 
cmill said:
I'll agree with you, but not for the same reasons. You wanna be captain? Wait your turn. That's fine. I think what's irking everyone is that the Feds are basically saying that someone with 1000 hours SIC 121 is more qualified than than someone with 10,000 PIC 135.
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They should just do away with direct entry positions all together, and then we won't have a debate.

Every time you are on a new type, no matter how many thousands of hours you have, you should sit right seat and learn the equipment. period.
 
Well, it's particularly amusing to me because everyone seems to agree that Colgan was the impetus for the change, and Capt. Renslow would have sailed right through any of the new requirements based on his time flying king airs around florida.

Now with that said, and without retracting any of my amused/shocked outrage at the round screwing of the freight dogs, I do think that the rest of the rule is good. Surprisingly good. Stunningly good, given the rampant corruption we've come to expect from our Gummint. I suspect that we all owe ATN, a certain Wookie, a certain Eagle F/O, etc, (and their kith) a good pat on the back, at the very least.
 
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