FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule

Actually, in attempting to move this back on-topic, in my current operation, we fly Metro III's primarily two-crew, in the 135 on-demand world. So, does my PIC time here count as multi-crew?
 
Patrick said:
Actually, in attempting to move this back on-topic, in my current operation, we fly Metro III's primarily two-crew, in the 135 on-demand world. So, does my PIC time here count as multi-crew?
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If you're anywhere near your POI, ask them, they should have a fairly straight forward answer for you.

Otherwise your ops specs likely lay it out fairly clearly what rules they're operating under.
 
jtrain609 said:
By all means, be concerned, but don't get online to whine about it. Get out there and get the time that you think will be valuable and then make the move. If your job isn't doing what you want it to do, and isn't providing you with the forward momentum you want, then network yourself into the next best job. I know the professional jackass crew is happy to help you too, what with how much good we've done for a ton of other people on this website.
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This has nothing to do with the "professional jackass crew." I have no idea whether I'll be content with my current gig in a year or not. I'd like to think yes, who we all know that life changes, and often, without asking for our input in its changes. In all likelihood, I'll probably never work for a 121 operator, but that doesn't meant that I wouldn't like to know where I'd stand if I did decided to go down that road.
 
Work as a CFI until you have 135 mins (12-18 months full time at many places)

Fly freight in a caravan or chieftan for a year till you meet ATP mins

Combine your ATP ride with your initial training

Fly right seat for at least 18 months and then you are eligible to upgrade


Guys, that is most of us are referring to when we talk about "paying your dues". This is hardly an impossible road, and is what most of the pilots that came before us had to do.
 
USMCmech said:
Work as a CFI until you have 135 mins (12-18 months full time at many places)

Fly freight in a caravan or chieftan for a year till you meet ATP mins

Combine your ATP ride with your initial training

Fly right seat for at least 18 months and then you are eligible to upgrade


Guys, that is most of us are referring to when we talk about "paying your dues". This is hardly an impossible road, and is what most of the pilots that came before us had to do.
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This sums things up perfectly.

The chances of upgrading in under 18 months is slim anyway. Few 121 companies have hired street captains, and even the quickest upgrades were in the 12-18 month range. If you're workin' your butt off, you can get those 1,000 hours in within 12 months, but you're right in that 18 is more realistic.
 
USMCmech said:
Work as a CFI until you have 135 mins (12-18 months full time at many places)

Fly freight in a caravan or chieftan for a year till you meet ATP mins

Combine your ATP ride with your initial training

Fly right seat for at least 18 months and then you are eligible to upgrade


Guys, that is most of us are referring to when we talk about "paying your dues". This is hardly an impossible road, and is what most of the pilots that came before us had to do.
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I think most of us are simply pointing out how much of a double standard exists here. Why does one type of PIC count, and another doesn't? PIC is PIC.
 
USMCmech said:
Work as a CFI until you have 135 mins (12-18 months full time at many places)

Fly freight in a caravan or chieftan for a year till you meet ATP mins

Combine your ATP ride with your initial training

Fly right seat for at least 18 months and then you are eligible to upgrade


Guys, that is most of us are referring to when we talk about "paying your dues". This is hardly an impossible road, and is what most of the pilots that came before us had to do.
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Completely agree. I've worked in a variety of aviation sectors, have given plenty of dual, got my ATP ASEL in a client's Bonanza with an examiner (on my own dime), and then combined my ATP AMEL with my first type rating.

I'm just trying to figure out how these new rules are going to help (and hurt, in some cases) all of us, as we all move forward.
 
dasleben said:
I think most of us are simply pointing out how much of a double standard exists here. Why does one type of PIC count, and another doesn't? PIC is PIC.
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So PIC in a 172 is the same as PIC in a 767?

I've used this argument in the past and was blown out of the water in short order.
 
USMCmech said:
Work as a CFI until you have 135 mins (12-18 months full time at many places)

Fly freight in a caravan or chieftan for a year till you meet ATP mins

Combine your ATP ride with your initial training

Fly right seat for at least 18 months and then you are eligible to upgrade


Guys, that is most of us are referring to when we talk about "paying your dues". This is hardly an impossible road, and is what most of the pilots that came before us had to do.
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Agree with USMC's simple synopsis. I'd add that the multi crew training requirement for the ATP would be necessary for an individual going this route (right?). Even if this is an expensive new training requirement, I see it as a step in the right direction to bring a more well rounded pilot into the commercial cockpit. I'm sure ATP flight school will have a program set up for it yesterday and it will be a cost factored into a guys career just like getting a CFI.

I still see the small school/non-aviation degree as the way to go. It will take you an extra year of instructing/time building to get there, but that's not a bad thing in my view.
 
jtrain609 said:
So PIC in a 172 is the same as PIC in a 767?

I've used this argument in the past and was blown out of the water in short order.
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Absolutely not. But PIC in a 402 with an SIC, flying pax is the same as PIC in a 402 flying boxes single pilot
 
dasleben said:
I think most of us are simply pointing out how much of a double standard exists here. Why does one type of PIC count, and another doesn't? PIC is PIC.
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I'm not in awe of airline pilots but I fully acknowledge that I would have a lot to learn before I could safely fly a RJ
 
jtrain609 said:
So PIC in a 172 is the same as PIC in a 767?
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Two very different types of operations. PIC experience that a professional pilot flying a Metro/1900/402/etc. gets can be extremely applicable when transitioning to a 767. Typically, the time one gets in a 172 is not applicable.
 
Patrick said:
Absolutely not. But PIC in a 402 with an SIC, flying pax is the same as PIC in a 402 flying boxes single pilot
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deadstick said:
No. But PIC in a 1900 flying freight should count the same as PIC of a 1900 at Lakes.
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I think this is what everyone is trying to say Mr. Train. Traditionally Part 135 single-pilot freight has been a respected and legitimate route people have been able to pursue in the process of paying their dues to reach a 121 job. As I recall from reading these forums a while you did it yourself as a check airmen for Amflight in BUR once upon a time. I think everyone is concerned that these on-demand Part 135 freight companies will become "dead-end jobs" overnight, and new pilots will all the sudden be competing for places like Cape Air to fly a C402 that they could fly any number of other places, simply because Cape operates them under a different sub-part of 135. Also since this industry isn't exactly a bottomless pit of jobs to begin with, it's very disconcerting to think that the opportunities for advancement will be narrowed even more.

I am eager to "pay my dues", I am absolutely enthusiastic about the opportunity to become a CFI and eventually fly part 135 with 1200 TT IFR-minimums, and flying freight in broken down BE99s and Metros even sounds like a rewarding way to build experience. I would also have NO problem with a mandatory 12-18 month waiting period once hired at a part 121 carrier before upgrade, nor an AllATPs "Multi-Crew" transition course to get the ATP cert.

What greatly concerns me - especially for my friends already flying freight - is the prospect of not getting hired at that 121 carrier to begin with because their time is deemed inferior to another guy's who flew the exact same airframe under a different 135 (or 91k) certificate number. That's simply not fair, and not at all reflective of the actual flight experience gained (simply that pilot A wasn't hired at pilot B's more sought after company flying the same equipment)... And it doesn't take an airline pilot (regarding your appeal to authority fallacy) to realize it.
 
inigo88 said:
I think this is what everyone is trying to say Mr. Train. Traditionally Part 135 single-pilot freight has been a respected and legitimate route people have been able to pursue in the process of paying their dues to reach a 121 job.....

What greatly concerns me - especially for my friends already flying freight - is the prospect of not getting hired at that 121 carrier to begin with because their time is deemed inferior to another guy's who flew the exact same airframe under a different 135 (or 91k) certificate number. That's simply not fair, and not at all reflective of the actual flight experience gained (simply that pilot A wasn't hired at pilot B's more sought after company flying the same equipment)... And it doesn't take an airline pilot (regarding your appeal to authority fallacy) to realize it.
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I don't see anything in this rule that indicates that the 135 freight route will be any less valuable than it is now. 135 freight will not get you the magical 1000 hours to be a Direct Hire Captain, but as has been well point out on this thread, that is a rare situation anyway. I think that it will actually make the cargo jobs more popular because no one will be able to get a 121 job with 500 hours. The problem will come with cargo companies trying to keep new hires longer than 6 months. I think starting pay in the 135 cargo world will go even lower, but retention bonuses will start coming into play.
 
skydisaster said:
I don't see anything in this rule that indicates that the 135 freight route will be any less valuable than it is now. 135 freight will not get you the magical 1000 hours to be a Direct Hire Captain, but as has been well point out on this thread, that is a rare situation anyway. I think that it will actually make the cargo jobs more popular because no one will be able to get a 121 job with 500 hours. The problem will come with cargo companies trying to keep new hires longer than 6 months. I think starting pay in the 135 cargo world will go even lower, but retention bonuses will start coming into play.
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Ah interesting point. Can I still call jtrain a jackass? :smoke:
 
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