FAA Proposal for ATP/1500 Rule

BobDDuck said:
I didn't see the actual language. I was just looking at the summary. If it says "appropriate" then I'm sure they can get around it. Over here, they've already said they won't type the FOs. The problem is the only ATP training program they have is part of the captain upgrade program so they are working with the FAA to create a new training program that is ONLY an ATP program. Seems like a lot of work, but they are really afraid of typing FOs and then having them run off to another operation that pays better and doesn't abuse the flight crews as much.
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Where are you at?
 
nmineau said:
I don't think it is true because as long as they have 1000 121 PIC or SIC they qualify in AUG
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From the NPRM:
§121.436 Pilot Qualification: Certificates and experience requirements.
(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless he holds an airline transport
pilot certificate, an appropriate aircraft type rating for the aircraft being flown, and has
1,000 hours as second in command in part 121 operations, pilot in command in operations
under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) of this chapter, or any combination thereof.

There are four ways to meet the 1000 hour requirement. 1000 hours 121 SIC, 1000 hours 135.243(a)(1) PIC, 1000 hours 91.1053(a)(2)(1) PIC, or any combination of those three. There is no provision for 1,000 hours PIC part 121 to be used to meet the experience requirements.

I would like to think that this is an oversight, but this is what is in black and white.
 
Ya I think that there should be a grandfather clause for all affected and my main point is that I am going for PIC 121 with only 500 sic 121 and need 1000 but all my 135 time does not count because it did not require an ATP so my 2500 135 PIC time means dick.
 
skydisaster said:
From the NPRM:
§121.436 Pilot Qualification: Certificates and experience requirements.
(a) No pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft unless he holds an airline transport
pilot certificate, an appropriate aircraft type rating for the aircraft being flown, and has
1,000 hours as second in command in part 121 operations, pilot in command in operations
under §91.1053(a)(2)(i) or §135.243(a)(1) of this chapter, or any combination thereof.

There are four ways to meet the 1000 hour requirement. 1000 hours 121 SIC, 1000 hours 135.243(a)(1) PIC, 1000 hours 91.1053(a)(2)(1) PIC, or any combination of those three. There is no provision for 1,000 hours PIC part 121 to be used to meet the experience requirements.

I would like to think that this is an oversight, but this is what is in black and white.
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I kept reading and corrected myself you are right so I commented on it on the website http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=FAA-2010-0100-0001
 
If I remember right, I'm pretty sure that the law itself passed by Congress included a grandfather clause, and that would supersede any regulation. Anyone else remember that, or am I getting senile already? :)
 
Blip16 said:
What is the "atp certification program"?

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk
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§61.154 ATP Certification Training Program: Airplane Category – Multiengine Class
Rating or Aircraft Type Rating.
After July 31, 2013, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport
pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an aircraft type rating
must present a certificate of completion from an authorized training provider certifying the
applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator
under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.
(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 24 hours
of classroom instruction that includes the following:
(1) At least 5 hours of instruction on high altitude operations, including aerodynamics and
physiology;
(2) At least 3 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena
and weather radar; and
(3) At least 12 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including turbine engines,
transport category aircraft performance, automation, communications, checklist
philosophy, and operational control.
(b) FSTD Training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 16 hours of
training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that
represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:
(1) At least 8 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator on
(i) Low energy states/stalls;
(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and
(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with
gusts; and
(2) At least 8 hours of training in a Level 4 or higher flight training device or a full flight
simulator on
(i) Aircraft performance;
(ii) Navigation;
(iii) Automation; and
(iv) Crew resource management.
 


The FAA is proposing the following alternative hour requirements for a restricted
privileges ATP certificate with airplane category multiengine class rating or type rating:
• 750 hours for a military pilot; and
• 1,000 hours for a graduate of a four-year baccalaureate aviation-degree program who
also received their commercial certificate and instrument rating from an affiliated part 141
42 pilot school.
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This mayhelp universities with 141 training such as UND and Embry Riddle
but the cost and debt will force students to give up the dream and turn to another field.
Zero to hero pilot mills may be done with. Is it worth it to spend $200k to get an aviation degree and commercial but not even have the 1000hrs then get your CFI and somehow get the magic 1000hrs just to make mid 20k or less? No bueno!
 
skydisaster said:
§61.154 ATP Certification Training Program: Airplane Category – Multiengine Class
Rating or Aircraft Type Rating.
After July 31, 2013, a person who applies for the knowledge test for an airline transport
pilot certificate with an airplane category multiengine class rating or an aircraft type rating
must present a certificate of completion from an authorized training provider certifying the
applicant has completed the following training in a course approved by the Administrator
under part 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.
(a) Academic training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 24 hours
of classroom instruction that includes the following:
(1) At least 5 hours of instruction on high altitude operations, including aerodynamics and
physiology;
(2) At least 3 hours of instruction on meteorology, including adverse weather phenomena
and weather radar; and
(3) At least 12 hours of instruction on air carrier operations, including turbine engines,
transport category aircraft performance, automation, communications, checklist
philosophy, and operational control.
(b) FSTD Training. The applicant for the knowledge test must receive at least 16 hours of
training in a flight simulation training device qualified under part 60 of this chapter that
represents a multiengine turbine airplane. The training must include the following:
(1) At least 8 hours of training in a Level C or higher full flight simulator on
(i) Low energy states/stalls;
(ii) Upset recovery techniques; and
(iii) Adverse weather conditions, including icing, thunderstorms, and crosswinds with
gusts; and
(2) At least 8 hours of training in a Level 4 or higher flight training device or a full flight
simulator on
(i) Aircraft performance;
(ii) Navigation;
(iii) Automation; and
(iv) Crew resource management.
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All this means is that before someone can get their ATP cert. if they arent in the 121, 135 environment, they would have to go to a 141 school somewhere right? Or only one of them fancy universities...
 
ahsmatt7 said:
All this means is that before someone can get their ATP cert. if they arent in the 121, 135 environment, they would have to go to a 141 school somewhere right? Or only one of them fancy universities...
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Actually, I believe an ATP that is not done through a 121 will probably be done through a 142 training center. They are best prepared for this type of course because they already have the simulators in place to do it. The average 141 school is not going to spend the capital on simulators to meet the requirements.
 
Riddle/UND sure know how to lobby...aka pay off the right people at the FAA. What a joke.
 
skydisaster said:
Actually, I believe an ATP that is not done through a 121 will probably be done through a 142 training center. They are best prepared for this type of course because they already have the simulators in place to do it. The average 141 school is not going to spend the capital on simulators to meet the requirements.
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Are 142 training centers akin to the type of place flight safety is?

it looks like they are a "training center." How would some random CFI go about getting into the new ATP certification program? Seems like a lot of hoops to go through just to get on with an airline....
 
ahsmatt7 said:
Are 142 training centers akin to the type of place flight safety is?

it looks like they are a "training center." How would some random CFI go about getting into the new ATP certification program? Seems like a lot of hoops to go through just to get on with an airline....
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Yes, Flight Safety (along with a few others) is a 142 training center. I think that the regionals will be forced to offer ATP training to new hires after they are hired.
 
Wow, the FAA was able to screw every single freight pilot with one rule. Guess this gives me a reason to get off my ass and get my ATP.
 
If this goes through as its written I wonder how the job market might change. Will airline jobs, especially at the regionals, be tougher to fill and the pay go up? Will 135 jobs that don't require an ATP be in higher demand and thus pay less? Makes be glad I got into aviation before this legislation. I think this is going to make it alot harder for someone to get into flying, most so for a pilot wanting to working for a 121 carrier.
 
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