F-35B declared operational with USMC

[Seggy]

Like it or not, certain parts of programs, as well as some programs money gets spent on, are indeed classified. The average Joe taxpayer, and even persons with clearances but without a need to know, won't know all the complete in's and outs.

That said, there are alot of answers as to why the F-35 is priced as it is, both legitimate answers as well as non-legit ones. It hasn't been the best run program to date, but neither has many new acquisition programs of all kinds, which is a hit on our flawed acquisitions process. In the end, I believe it will live up to what its supposed to do, and hopefully we learn some lessons on how not to bankrupt ourselves in the process of meeting a legitimate defense need.

That is the travesty, we have been acquiring new equipment for decades but it is still extensively flawed.

The military industrial complex is strong in our society.

 

[Lawman]

That is the travesty, we have been acquiring new equipment for decades but it is still extensively flawed.

The military industrial complex is strong in our society.

Except again as stated over and over again it is not the flawed trillion dollar lemon you seem to think it is. Those of us with access to information you Joe tax payer don't have seem to be aware of that but you refuse to believe it. Then again when you use terms like "military industrial complex" it's pretty clear where you sit on any and all military spending.

Youre recognizing the fact that cyber is the new opening battlefield (and we do since it's slowly becoming it's own command). But when you make comments like "we will have air superiority over Syria in 5 years" your showing your ass. I've been part of working groups to that problem. "How do we go into Syria" and it's ugly. Can it be done, absolutely at a massive cost increase over what it was in say the Balkans or more recently Libya. Again you don't seem to understand, we had to use a 5th gen stealth aircraft backed by SEAD and ECM today to get into Syria. Your screaming we don't need F-35 when we needed Raptor to go where Hornet and Rhino can't and do exactly what your saying won't happen. It doesn't get better 5 years from now. Do you not see the stupidity of your argument?

So again Congressman Seggy, what plane should we have/do we need.

 

[Seggy]

Except again as stated over and over again it is not the flawed trillion dollar lemon you seem to think it is. Those of us with access to information you Joe tax payer don't have seem to be aware of that but you refuse to believe it. Then again when you use terms like "military industrial complex" it's pretty clear where you sit on any and all military spending.

Where do you sit on social program spending?

Also, actions speak louder than words. Hopefully, the F-35 never sees combat, but time will tell if it is a lemon or not.

Youre recognizing the fact that cyber is the new opening battlefield (and we do since it's slowly becoming it's own command). But when you make comments like "we will have air superiority over Syria in 5 years" your showing your ass. I've been part of working groups to that problem. "How do we go into Syria" and it's ugly. Can it be done, absolutely at a massive cost increase over what it was in say the Balkans or more recently Libya. Again you don't seem to understand, we had to use a 5th gen stealth aircraft backed by SEAD and ECM today to get into Syria. Your screaming we don't need F-35 when we needed Raptor to go where Hornet and Rhino can't and do exactly what your saying won't happen. It doesn't get better 5 years from now. Do you not see the stupidity of your argument?

So again Congressman Seggy, what plane should we have/do we need.

I get that some of our equipment may be getting old. However, I call BS on the Military Industrial Complex fleecing the American taxpayer at a cost of +100,000,000 per airplane.

 

[Lawman]

Where do you sit on social program spending?

Also, actions speak louder than words. Hopefully, the F-35 never sees combat, but time will tell if it is a lemon or not.



I get that some of our equipment may be getting old. Instead of 25 nuclear missiles to take out the world, it may be able to be accomplished with 22 now! I call BS on the Military Industrial Complex fleecing the American taxpayer at a cost of +100,000,000 per airplane.

Lockheed didn't put Raptors over Syria, the Joint Force Air Component Commander and his staff did. Why because when it's down to available forces and assets to accomplish a problem the answer comes back with we can commit X number of missiles and TLAMs and support planes and a crap load of tankers to get through and losses will be Y%.... Or you send Raptor with a fraction of that package. MikeD has tried explaining it to you and that guy flew Stealth when it was the only thing out there that could go in these places like Bagdad. Look up the Package Q strike sometime. See what happens when you send a force against the old 70s technology without ECM and support. It was a disaster and we never tried it again Now try that today against SA-10/20... We would have lost that entire strike group. We never flew a single manned sortie by non stealth aircraft over Bagdad during the course of that war. That war took place 25 years ago. F-35 is the natural March of progression because despite the attitude that what we have is fine, it isn't. Those of us that fly what we have or work in the planning cells to use what we have know those limitations. You simply don't want to hear them or pretend they don't exist.

Just deal with it, you don't know what your talking about. You having never been in a military air component that's not surprising. But at this point your screaming it's your right to be upset but when people try to explain it to you, you just sit with your thumbs in your ears and and scream "no I'm mad and you can't change that I've made up my mind." Still waiting to hear what airplane we should be sending into Syria.

And Obama care isn't covered under, "Provide for the common defense." The military is, especially when as I said earlier both democrat and republicans have sent us to plenty of craptastic places to fight for whatever reason they decided. The least you tax payers and the people you elect can do is send us there with the tools to do our jobs. Are you mad we spent money on MRAP? You wouldn't believe what those things cost, and they are designed to get blown up. After all it's just those of us in harms way. Make due with Humvees the military industrial complex might fleece us out of money protecting you guys. Mines will always be there, we shouldn't be trying so hard. Gotta pay for a healthcare law so compromised nobody is happy with it.

 

[milleR]

Seggy- what is your military/government background on which you base your opinions?

From the nose-bleeds your tirade sounds a lot like a regional FO railing against ALPA.

 

[BEEF SUPREME]

How many brand new Sukhois could we get for that?

 

[A Life Aloft]

Seggy- what is your military/government background on which you base your opinions?

 

[Seggy]

Any or all of the above.

You prepare as best as you can.

There is no crystal ball.

We could have used that money to actually fix things though.

 

[Seggy]

Lockheed didn't put Raptors over Syria, the Joint Force Air Component Commander and his staff did. Why because when it's down to available forces and assets to accomplish a problem the answer comes back with we can commit X number of missiles and TLAMs and support planes and a crap load of tankers to get through and losses will be Y%.... Or you send Raptor with a fraction of that package. MikeD has tried explaining it to you and that guy flew Stealth when it was the only thing out there that could go in these places like Bagdad. Look up the Package Q strike sometime. See what happens when you send a force against the old 70s technology without ECM and support. It was a disaster and we never tried it again Now try that today against SA-10/20... We would have lost that entire strike group. We never flew a single manned sortie by non stealth aircraft over Bagdad during the course of that war. That war took place 25 years ago. F-35 is the natural March of progression because despite the attitude that what we have is fine, it isn't. Those of us that fly what we have or work in the planning cells to use what we have know those limitations. You simply don't want to hear them or pretend they don't exist.

So out of 78 aircraft, two were destroyed?

Also, wasn't one destroyed just by regular Anti-Aircraft fire?

Just deal with it, you don't know what your talking about. You having never been in a military air component that's not surprising. But at this point your screaming it's your right to be upset but when people try to explain it to you, you just sit with your thumbs in your ears and and scream "no I'm mad and you can't change that I've made up my mind." Still waiting to hear what airplane we should be sending into Syria.

I do now that us spending $100,000,000+ for ONE airplane is part of the dangerous military industrial complex we have in our society. Just because I haven't been in the military doesn't mean I can't have an opinion as a citizen and tax payer that spending that much is wrong. Look at the Air Force Tanker replacement scandal as well to show the perils of this complex.

And Obama care isn't covered under, "Provide for the common defense." The military is, especially when as I said earlier both democrat and republicans have sent us to plenty of craptastic places to fight for whatever reason they decided. The least you tax payers and the people you elect can do is send us there with the tools to do our jobs. Are you mad we spent money on MRAP? You wouldn't believe what those things cost, and they are designed to get blown up. After all it's just those of us in harms way. Make due with Humvees the military industrial complex might fleece us out of money protecting you guys. Mines will always be there, we shouldn't be trying so hard. Gotta pay for a healthcare law so compromised nobody is happy with it.

I agree, both sides have royally screwed the pooch on military spending. No I am not mad we spend money on the MRAP. But is the cost over inflated due to the procurement procedures in place? That is my angst.

 

[jskibo]

Look at the Air Force Tanker replacement scandal as well to show the perils of this complex.



.

meh.....

Worked it, lived it, was on 767 Tanker from Day one in Wichita. Don't believe all you see on (insert CNN, 60 Minutes, Faux News here). Quite overblown.......

 

[Seggy]

Seggy- what is your military/government background on which you base your opinions?

From the nose-bleeds your tirade sounds a lot like a regional FO railing against ALPA.

I just finished reading a book about the Dreyfus Affair. In that book, you had the French Military High Command who thought that they were above the Republic. They used the line 'I have the information about the accused from a source I can't share because of National Security purposes!' a lot in keeping Mr. Dreyfus in confinement because of the wrong path they went down.

That sounds very similar to the line of 'you wouldn't know as you never served' as well as 'you will never know because it is classified'. Yes, I do get that information IS classified, but it can also be a dangerous and slippery slope to spend billions on a project when it is compartmentalized as it can be.

Folks can be critical of ALPA. I really don't care. I get there is angst out there. However, try to change it or get rid of the people giving you angst. Furthermore, saying, 'well how would you know about that' sounds awfully similar to the favorite words of the 'Secondary MEC' we are seeing at a particular airline.

I really am all for giving our troops the tools the need. But, the military industrial complex exists.

 

[Boris Badenov]

This "you don't understand and thus don't get to venture an opinion" stuff has got to go. Obviously, we all labor under different degrees of ignorance of all sorts of things. Apparently, there's at least one guy out there who's flown the F-35 and thinks it sucks. Does that immediately invalidate anything YOU say because YOU haven't flown an F-35? Obviously, no. But, you know, sauce for the goose.

 

[Seggy]

meh.....

Worked it, lived it, was on 767 Tanker from Day one in Wichita. Don't believe all you see on (insert CNN, 60 Minutes, Faux News here). Quite overblown.......

So jail time, as well as the firing of the Boeing CFO and the resigning of the CEO as well as $615 million dollars of fines is called 'overblown'?

 

[Lawman]

So out of 78 aircraft, two were destroyed?

Also, wasn't one destroyed just by regular Anti-Aircraft fire?



I do now that us spending $100,000,000+ for ONE airplane is part of the dangerous military industrial complex we have in our society. Just because I haven't been in the military doesn't mean I can't have an opinion as a citizen and tax payer that spending that much is wrong. Look at the Air Force Tanker replacement scandal as well to show the perils of this complex.



I agree, both sides have royally screwed the pooch on military spending. No I am not mad we spend money on the MRAP. But is the cost over inflated due to the procurement procedures in place? That is my angst.

SAMs push you low, into AAA which is the undisputed king of killing airplanes. And it's not the 2 aircraft shot down, it's the fact that none of that strike package could reach it's target and achieve effect. We never launched another raid like that because it didn't work.

And yes all those zeros in the price tag look scary but again that number doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Let's put it this was.
1. Do you agree we have consumed the life our our current fleet and can't afford to keep pushing the can down the road.

2. If yes, do you understand that we cannot buy our current fleet because they stopped building them 5-15 years ago.

3. Does any 100+ million dollar plane piss you off because it's so expensive. Because right now the Silent Eagle is almost as expensive as the F-35 and it isn't 5th gen. So what plane are we buying instead of F-35, because they all cost a ridiculous amount of money.


Think of what 36 million dollars bought in 1970, that's what the Tomcat cost back then. Your getting sticker shock like a guy that shows up to a car dealership after a 10 year coma.

And people went to jail for the tanker debacle.

 

[jskibo]

So jail time, as well as the firing of the Boeing CFO and the resigning of the CEO as well as $615 million dollars of fines is called 'overblown'?

Yes....And the CEO (Stonecipher) went out for his little affair issue not anything to do with Tanker.

And that pleases me as that little %$&$&$& got rid of our Stock options

 

[MikeD]

So out of 78 aircraft, two were destroyed?

Also, wasn't one destroyed just by regular Anti-Aircraft fire?

Both F-16s were lost to SAMs, SA-3 and SA-6. Which was by sheer luck that more weren't lost in that raid, with all the problems it had.

I agree, both sides have royally screwed the pooch on military spending. No I am not mad we spend money on the MRAP. But is the cost over inflated due to the procurement procedures in place? That is my angst.

What's sad about the MRAPs, is that many of these very expensive vehicles were destroyed in-place in Afghanistan, as the means to get them out of the country, with no seaports and no good land routes or rail infrastructure, meant transporting them by air would take far too long; unlike Iraq where they could be convoyed to Kuwait. So many were scrapped by us right there in the country, some of these vehicles being only a few years old.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

I just finished reading a book about the Dreyfus Affair. In that book, you had the French Military High Command who thought that they were above the Republic. They used the line 'I have the information about the accused from a source I can't share because of National Security purposes!' a lot in keeping Mr. Dreyfus in confinement because of the wrong path they went down.

That sounds very similar to the line of 'you wouldn't know as you never served' as well as 'you will never know because it is classified'. Yes, I do get that information IS classified, but it can also be a dangerous and slippery slope to spend billions on a project when it is compartmentalized as it can be.

Folks can be critical of ALPA. I really don't care. I get there is angst out there. However, try to change it or get rid of the people giving you angst. Furthermore, saying, 'well how would you know about that' sounds awfully similar to the favorite words of the 'Secondary MEC' we are seeing at a particular airline.

I really am all for giving our troops the tools the need. But, the military industrial complex exists.

Oh man. The lack of transparency in the name of national security nowadays is pretty spectacular. What's worse is the DHS-tech-industrial complex, the subject of Top Secret America.

 

[Seggy]

SAMs push you low, into AAA which is the undisputed king of killing airplanes. And it's not the 2 aircraft shot down, it's the fact that none of that strike package could reach it's target and achieve effect. We never launched another raid like that because it didn't work.

And yes all those zeros in the price tag look scary but again that number doesn't exist in a vacuum.

Let's put it this was.
1. Do you agree we have consumed the life our our current fleet and can't afford to keep pushing the can down the road.

I don't know? What will the next war look like? China is building islands in a sea right now. Do we need more aircraft or do we need more aircraft carriers? Or do we hack into the Chinese internet, show them all porn, and that will lead to a revolt against the communist party?

2. If yes, do you understand that we cannot buy our current fleet because they stopped building them 5-15 years ago.

Can we upgrade our fleet though?

3. Does any 100+ million dollar plane piss you off because it's so expensive. Because right now the Silent Eagle is almost as expensive as the F-35 and it isn't 5th gen. So what plane are we buying instead of F-35, because they all cost a ridiculous amount of money.


Think of what 36 million dollars bought in 1970, that's what the Tomcat cost back then. Your getting sticker shock like a guy that shows up to a car dealership after a 10 year coma.

And people went to jail for the tanker debacle.

That is the thing. Folks went to jail because of a military contract in recent times. Can you at least see why there would be trust issues here?

 

[Lawman]

This "you don't understand and thus don't get to venture an opinion" stuff has got to go. Obviously, we all labor under different degrees of ignorance of all sorts of things. Apparently, there's at least one guy out there who's flown the F-35 and thinks it sucks. Does that immediately invalidate anything YOU say because YOU haven't flown an F-35? Obviously, no. But, you know, sauce for the goose.

No it's the fact that all a person in your position can do is parrot. And unfortunately because there is so much white noise out there on this specific topic a ton of what your parroting is bad info. That's why you get the "shut up and color" treatment. When your writing about military hardware if your only access to info is google, it's like writing a research paper using Wikipedia

Look at the STFU article written by the Viper test pilot on the whole "dogfight" debacle article. He flat comes out and says the argument is garbage but people still scream "Pierre Sprey! Blah! Can't fly upside down" or some other garbage because that's what is out there to parrot for an argument. If you don't have experience or the ability to access non open source info you should know better than to stand up and tell those of us who do your on even footing.

 

[Seggy]

Oh man. The lack of transparency in the name of national security nowadays is pretty spectacular. What's worse is the DHS-tech-industrial complex, the subject of Top Secret America.

Read the book 'An Officer and a Spy'. It is VERY accurate historical fiction that really explains the Dreyfus Affair extraordinarily well. It is scary the similarities between what was used in the past in terms of national security and where we are today.