F-35B declared operational with USMC

The design is off of the original C-130 if that's what you're getting at. In terms of new, it would be comparable to the 737NG to the original -100 model. Several design changes, new engines (RR), new props, glass cockpit, and has better performance than the previous models.
 
The design is off of the original C-130 if that's what you're getting at. In terms of new, it would be comparable to the 737NG to the original -100 model. Several design changes, new engines (RR), new props, glass cockpit, and has better performance than the previous models.

What year were they built?
 
What year were they built?

It's not just about newness either.

A point people keep forgetting is while our current fleet was designed in the 70s time and technology have marched on. Everything from computer software compatibility issues to cooling and electrical power have become a disaster.

The Vipers and Hornets we are flying today are literally tapped out on those items. And every time there is a new upgrade you have to make box x from 1990 integrate into bus A from 1970, and marry it to a new radio or sensor from 4 years ago. It's becoming a nightmare and the exponential cost to upgrade a 40 year old airplane is making updates longer and more expensive to bring in.

Add that to 10-12 years of constant deployment cycles and we have quite simply used up our fleet.

The point about you being a tax payer and all is great and yes the AF has done a crap job on the PR of why we need this thing. End of the day though your in the position right now of somebody with just enough knowledge to be dangerous getting into a conversation. Yes these planes are expensive, but between you (and the other tax payers) having no operational experience nor having access to the non open source data you need to accept that your yes/no call on whether we need these or not is in no way equal to somebody with that date/experience.
 
Is 1.5 Trillion really the number?

Somewhere around there for the entire program of aircraft of all models.

There seem to be quite a few more 'problems' with the program that jacked up the cost. I get the 'old' technology concerns to a point (think B-52s and C-130s are doing just fine) but could that 1.5 trillion have been better invested say in counter cyber attack programs?

B-52 isn't a fair comparison in terms of age necessarily. In that, the -52 is flown much like an airliner anymore; the low altitude high-airframe stress work just isn't as much done anymore with the current H-model jets, as was done in the 1970s/80s. The former D and G model jets that served in Vietnam, as well as the G models that served in Desert Storm, in the time after Vietnam those jets were flown on many low-level flying missions that were fair stressors to the airframes, consistent with the attack tactics at the time. Due to that and combat, the D models were all retired in 1984, and the G models in 1994. The H models mainly sat nuclear alert for most of their lives, and didn't see major combat until Afghanistan, as they were never used in Vietnam or Desert Storm, they were kept stateside. So while the H models are 1960/61 model years, one really has to look at how they've been used to understand why they're lasting so long. In any event, the B-52s also keep getting mostly killed in Red Flag exercises up in Nevada.

C-130s the same. The current J models aren't that old. The A/B/E (1950s/60s model years) and many of the earlier H models from the early 1970s are all retired. The oldest -130 in US service is from the 1970s, and most are newer J models from the 2000s.

We have F-15 Eagles coming apart in the air on ACM missions, D-model F-16s were recently all grounded for a good while due to airframe cracks. These tactical jets are worked hard and their airframes show it. Many USMC F/A-18s sit broken on their ramps. They are in need of replacement. While a full spectrum of combat capabilities are indeed needed, such as cyber attack counter programs and the like, we still need the fighter jet. And the F-35 is the future to replace a good few platforms. I think it'll have growing pains like any other aircraft, much like the F-111 did in its early days, but I think it'll ultimately be a success for what we're needing it to do. I agree much of the program has been an exercise in fiscal mismanagement to a serious degree, and that's in large part to reforms that our acquisition process needs. Hopefully we iron that out, as we already spend tons of $$$ on defense as is, and we need to be far more responsible in that realm.
 
The point about you being a tax payer and all is great and yes the AF has done a crap job on the PR of why we need this thing. End of the day though your in the position right now of somebody with just enough knowledge to be dangerous getting into a conversation. Yes these planes are expensive, but between you (and the other tax payers) having no operational experience nor having access to the non open source data you need to accept that your yes/no call on whether we need these or not is in no way equal to somebody with that date/experience.

A lot of military folks forget this but I can run for Congress, win, and then be placed on the House or Senate Armed Services Committee which is responsible and has oversight for the Department of Defense all with no operational experience. We have a civilian controlled military for a reason, as a taxpayer I can be pissed that we are spending a lot of money on military pork.

It is also EXTREMELY hypocritical of the GOP to be talking about government spending when we are spending 1.5 Trillion on an airplane that so far sucks from a lot of the reports.
 

Rogoway is another one who has zero experience in what he writes, yet couches himself as some kind of "in the know" expert of mil hardware. So I tend to take what he writes with grain of salt, as he has his own particular slants too. Same with Tony Carr.....sure, he's retired USAF and writes on many USAF matters, but when it comes to fighter/attack aviation and his background as a career C-17 pilot, I tend to take a very close look at things he criticizes that are out of his lane of first-hand knowledge. The test referenced in the piece was indeed a constrained airframe used to test specific AOA parameters. It wasn't a handcuffs-off fight. Heck, even within-visual-range dogfighting has so largely changed with the advent of all-aspect air-air missiles, you don't even need to be on an enemy's tail to shoot him down anymore.
 
A lot of military folks forget this but I can run for Congress, win, and then be placed on the House or Senate Armed Services Committee which is responsible and has oversight for the Department of Defense all with no operational experience. We have a civilian controlled military for a reason, as a taxpayer I can be pissed that we are spending a lot of money on military pork.

It is also EXTREMELY hypocritical of the GOP to be talking about government spending when we are spending 1.5 Trillion on an airplane that so far sucks from a lot of the reports.

Insofar as pork, that's the story of Congress right there.......inserting all kinds of unrelated crap into X Bill.

Would be like Congress mandating airman's medicals. ;)
 
Insofar as pork, that's the story of Congress right there.......inserting all kinds of unrelated crap into X Bill.

Would be like Congress mandating airman's medicals. ;)

The Constitution clearly states we have a civilian controlled military.

Congress has given oversight to the FAA of the FARs.

Huge differences.
 
Heck, even within-visual-range dogfighting has so largely changed with the advent of all-aspect air-air missiles, you don't even need to be on an enemy's tail to shoot him down anymore.
I'm sure the tech really has gotten a lot better over the years, but haven't we been saying stuff like this since the Vietnam war?
 
The Constitution clearly states we have a civilian controlled military.

Congress has given oversight to the FAA.

Huge differences.

No one is questioning the civilian controlled military, as stupid as many decisions that Congress makes and dips their hands into are.

I'm sure the tech really has gotten a lot better over the years, but haven't we been saying stuff like this since the Vietnam war?

We didn't have High off-boresight missiles back then. Missiles where I don't even have to be pointed at you, and you can almost be behind me, and I can still kill you. That's a major difference from then until now. That's how WVR fights have changed in a major way.
 
A lot of military folks forget this but I can run for Congress, win, and then be placed on the House or Senate Armed Services Committee which is responsible and has oversight for the Department of Defense all with no operational experience. We have a civilian controlled military for a reason, as a taxpayer I can be pissed that we are spending a lot of money on military pork.

It is also EXTREMELY hypocritical of the GOP to be talking about government spending when we are spending 1.5 Trillion on an airplane that so far sucks from a lot of the reports.

It's extremely hypocritical for democrats to say we don't need an airplane when the current D administration has put more aircraft over anti air capable nations than the previous one. There is a reason we sent Raptors into Syria and not Hornets or Eagles. And by the way, it was congress that decided to take 4 separate programs and merge them into the JSF program in the first place.

The members of congress sitting on the house armed services committee get access to a hell of a lot of classified information you sitting behind your computer right now do not have. Even then, they still ask military members for their expertise and insight into the requirements of the service.

You can keep going down this chain and I can keep politely saying "you don't know what the hell your talking about."

Whether or not your a civilian tax payer has no bearing on that. Plenty of people within the military don't know what they are talking about in regards to aviation. Would you ask your tower guy about which is a superior air liner?
 
The members of congress sitting on the house armed services committee get access to a hell of a lot of classified information you sitting behind your computer right now do not have. Even then, they still ask military members for their expertise and insight into the requirements of the service.

I get that, but just because they get the advice doesn't mean they have to follow it, nor is it good advice or apolitical advice. The Generals giving the Congressman this advice is towing their respective's branch line.

You can keep going down this chain and I can keep politely saying "you don't know what the hell your talking about."

I do know.

There are a lot of politics when it comes to the Military. It isn't apolitical as some think, nor do the advisors giving the civilians advice and guidance necessarily have all the information put out there to the civilians running the show.

Whether or not your a civilian tax payer has no bearing on that.

It absolutely does! I am livid that we are spending 1.5 Trillion dollars on an airplane to wage war. As a tax payer I have EVERY right to be pissed about it.


Plenty of people within the military don't know what they are talking about in regards to aviation. Would you ask your tower guy about which is a superior air liner?

The tower guy isn't paying for the airplane. I am paying for the airplane here.

I can question it. Doesn't mean it will change anything though.
 
There are a lot of politics when it comes to the Military. It isn't apolitical as some think, nor do the advisors giving the civilians advice and guidance necessarily have all the information put out there to the civilians running the show. It absolutely does! I am livid that we are spending 1.5 Trillion dollars on an airplane to wage war. As a tax payer I have EVERY right to be pissed about it. The tower guy isn't paying for the airplane. I am paying for the airplane here.

Ok congressman Seggy, why don't you tell those of us with access to AF3-1 and current O plans, who have deployed to fight overseas in whatever action you deem politically necessary what we need.

Say 5 years from now things finally come to a head with Russia and we fight a slow escalation local non nuclear war. What planes do we need for that fight. Or hell lets go into Syria and fully take it down like we did Libya because Assad is now on our S list or uses chem on Alepo. Five years from now after they've continued their arms buildup and now own S-300/400 series SAMs.
 
Is 1.5 Trillion really the number?

No it's not really the number....

Before you get livid about the actual cost... just realize the "cost" is constantly being updated by various agencies based on predicted inflators out so far as 2060. Who knows what the inflation will be like in 2060. So keep in mind, we're not talking in today's dollars... we're talking in "then inflation". The estimates everyone seems to quote are what it will take to operate and sustain 2457 F-35s across the DOD. The Office of the Secretary of Defense quoted $1060 billion. The Joint program's office estimate went from $917 billion to around $860 billion this past year.

While it's still a relatively high figure, it needs to be put in perspective... particularly by people who constantly use the price tag as an argument.
 
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