F-117 "Cloaking Device"

[Lawman]

The USAF acknowledged the crash, they just called it comething else.......such as an F-4 Phantom from George AFB on the standard "routine training mission".

Damn weather balloons... always slamming into the ground and exploding somewhere. Especially New Mexico where there is all that.... “weather.”

 

[MikeD]

Damn weather balloons... always slamming into the ground and exploding somewhere. Especially New Mexico where there is all that.... “weather.”

You laugh. The one time the F-117 was used as an ad-hoc interceptor, was during the case of America West 564 in 1995

The case here:

America West Airlines Case - 1995

 

[FlyingAccountant]

Are all the F117's stored at Tonopah because they're still classified and can't go to Davis?

I believe it's because they're being kept in some state of readiness and the exterior can't withstand long term exposure to the elements.

They've been regularly catching F117s bombing around the Nellis complex recently so they still have some sort of relevance to someone.

 

[gotWXdagain]

I believe it's because they're being kept in some state of readiness and the exterior can't withstand long term exposure to the elements.

They've been regularly catching F117s bombing around the Nellis complex recently so they still have some sort of relevance to someone.

I’d heard that as well, that a couple F-117’s have been seen playing around Tonopah this year.

 

[bucksmith]

Glad this thread got resuscitated, great read!
I remember when I was a RADAR tech in Yuma, we ran inside after the F-117 left from the airshow. We turned down the secondary on an extra scope and was disappointed to see a bit more of a primary return then we had expected. (Edit: still smaller than a jet of that size would of produced, could of been C-172!)
Later I heard somewhere that the paint had to be reapplied often to really get the signature down (or something). @MikeD , could you add anything to that story to make it more interesting?
I feel like maybe you're the guy that told me about the paint anyway! Maybe it was in another thread around here...
As always, what a treat to have you around!

 

[Pépé le Pilot]

Awesome stuff Mike. Did you get to meet Ben Rich ? As I understand, the story behind the F117 derives from an obscure... Russian paper published in a mathematical review about selective radio wave reflectivity of flat surfaces. Another interesting bit is that it's all flat surfaces because computing power available back then was not sufficient to model curves ! Funny how Russia has been part of American aviation history (SR71 titanium etc.)...

 

[Lawman]

Glad this thread got resuscitated, great read!
I remember when I was a RADAR tech in Yuma, we ran inside after the F-117 left from the airshow. We turned down the secondary on an extra scope and was disappointed to see a bit more of a primary return then we had expected. (Edit: still smaller than a jet of that size would of produced, could of been C-172!)
Later I heard somewhere that the paint had to be reapplied often to really get the signature down (or something). @MikeD , could you add anything to that story to make it more interesting?
I feel like maybe you're the guy that told me about the paint anyway! Maybe it was in another thread around here...
As always, what a treat to have you around!

Radar return is a function of a lot of different factors. Not the least of which are wave length, antenna size, output power, and the radar resolution cell size.

You’ll hear a lot of gas from Sukhoi fanboys about how the Chinese have radars that will pick up Raptor/B2. Look any radar will see these aircraft should the conditions be right (like being way way to close to it). Problem is that Flanker driver who is gonna “see” the Raptor he’s fighting theoretically is gonna eat half a dozen AMRAAMs poking around blindly in the sky trying to find it.

Same is true for the magic long wave “anti stealth” radar systems the Chinese claim to have. It’s a ground based system and it’s huge. It has to be to work. If nobody thinks a system like that on a battle field isn’t gonna eat a dozen TLAMs the first moment of an opening conflict they’re crazy.


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[Cptnchia]

Awesome stuff Mike. Did you get to meet Ben Rich ? As I understand, the story behind the F117 derives from an obscure... Russian paper published in a mathematical review about selective radio wave reflectivity of flat surfaces. Another interesting bit is that it's all flat surfaces because computing power available back then was not sufficient to model curves ! Funny how Russia has been part of American aviation history (SR71 titanium etc.)...

Have a friend who was an FE on AWACS during the Gulf war. According to him, the radar operators were always trying to identify the 117s coming back south before they turned on their IFFs. Even knowing the approximate time and location of the egress, and directing the radars into that space, they were never able to tag one.

 

[Lawman]

Have a friend who was an FE on AWACS during the Gulf war. According to him, the radar operators were always trying to identify the 117s coming back south before they turned on their IFFs. Even knowing the approximate time and location of the egress, and directing the radars into that space, they were never able to tag one.

That’s really the principle of the tactics stealth allowed. There is a return there no matter how minuscule and if you could reduce the resolution cell down tight enough for it to break out you’ll see the guy. Problem is that doesn’t allow you to work from big (wide area search) to small (target tracking and handoff to a SAM battery). So instead you’re basically duck hunting while trying to look through a coffee straw.

And all the while an opponent is doing that, he’s emitting energy and allowing us to track, fix, and target that radar. That’s why stealth works so well in a real big fight type war. Unlike the movies those radars aren’t just on all the time scanning, because to do so invites death. So limited picture and time to look for those hidden aircraft operating at times and areas of their choosing. It puts the math squarely on the side of the attacker and not the defender. Unless we do something stupid like Bosnia and fly the same route like a routine begging to be shot at.



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[FlyingAccountant]

Unless we do something stupid like Bosnia and fly the same route like a routine begging to be shot at.

You would have thought we would have learned that in Vietnam during LB2 when the B52s were flying the exact same routes every night. The NVAs didn't even have to aim, it was just a matter of setting the azimuth and timing the missile launch to a return on the radar. Lo and behold, they start letting the pilots make the routing decisions and they were insanely successful after that.

 

[MikeD]

Awesome stuff Mike. Did you get to meet Ben Rich ? As I understand, the story behind the F117 derives from an obscure... Russian paper published in a mathematical review about selective radio wave reflectivity of flat surfaces. Another interesting bit is that it's all flat surfaces because computing power available back then was not sufficient to model curves ! Funny how Russia has been part of American aviation history (SR71 titanium etc.)...

Sadly no, Mr Rich passed away several years before I was part of the program. Would've been a great guy to meet and talk to.

You would have thought we would have learned that in Vietnam during LB2 when the B52s were flying the exact same routes every night. The NVAs didn't even have to aim, it was just a matter of setting the azimuth and timing the missile launch to a return on the radar. Lo and behold, they start letting the pilots make the routing decisions and they were insanely successful after that.

We made the same idiotic mistakes. And it cost us that -117.

Glad this thread got resuscitated, great read!
I remember when I was a RADAR tech in Yuma, we ran inside after the F-117 left from the airshow. We turned down the secondary on an extra scope and was disappointed to see a bit more of a primary return then we had expected. (Edit: still smaller than a jet of that size would of produced, could of been C-172!)
Later I heard somewhere that the paint had to be reapplied often to really get the signature down (or something). @MikeD , could you add anything to that story to make it more interesting?
I feel like maybe you're the guy that told me about the paint anyway! Maybe it was in another thread around here...
As always, what a treat to have you around!

Glad you like the information and stories. Its a very interesting program all told.

Others here explained some of the radar physics. The stealth depends on shape to diffuse radar returns, as well as the Radar Absorbent Material coating to absorb it; both preventing the radar return from getting back to the source radar. The jet is always there on the screen, as some radar energy always gets back to the source, but its not enough of a return for anyone to pick out except for a good radar operator who has the experience and the available time to do so. While the former may exist, the latter normally doesn't.

 

[BigZ]

Same is true for the magic long wave “anti stealth” radar systems the Chinese claim to have. It’s a ground based system and it’s huge. It has to be to work. If nobody thinks a system like that on a battle field isn’t gonna eat a dozen TLAMs the first moment of an opening conflict they’re crazy.

Ackchyually with those things it's a function of sharing the info, they don't need to be anywhere close to a battlefield.
The "Russian Woodpecker" has been decommissioned though, which means they have something else now
That's if you're talking about these things - mostly used to watch for you guys launching missiles

 

[Adler]

Ackchyually with those things it's a function of sharing the info, they don't need to be anywhere close to a battlefield.
The "Russian Woodpecker" has been decommissioned though, which means they have something else now
That's if you're talking about these things - mostly used to watch for you guys launching missiles

Hey I've been there...