Extremely Severe Turbulence Sends People to Hospital

Murdoughnut said:
Is there really any excuse for not being belted in - it's not as is it was calm and then all of a sudden things got crazy.
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I've found on transoceanic flights that there is no way you're going to get a European to sit belted-in for any length of time come hell or high water. They're always standing around, blocking aisles, and just waiting to become flying cabin debris.
 
chrisreedrules said:
After watching the video, I don't feel that the turbulence was that bad.
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That's the thing, though. I don't mean any disrespect, but it doesn't matter what a bunch of pilots think.

People get scared because they do not understand what's going on and they have zero control over what is happening to them. Their instincts are to do something, ANYTHING, to alleviate fear reactions and they can't.

Doesn't matter what we think. It matters that these folks were scared crapless.
 
wheelsup said:
Stuff was thrown everywhere, people were screaming, and IIRC 5 of the injured were crew. Call it whatever you want - smooth, light, mod, severe, extreme - I don't really care but to downplay the significance of the event isn't bright. People - our customers - are in general slightly afraid to fly as it is, this just makes it worse. They had a right to be scared, did you watch the video?
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Yes, I watched it. It doesn't look like fun to me and there would likely be some yelling up front like "let's get lower/higher/somewhere else right meow!" were I there. I certainly wouldn't want to drive through that stuff unless I had to.

And in back, I would scootch my butt back into my seat and yank on the loose end of the belt, and hold on.
 
RDoug said:
I've found on transoceanic flights that there is no way you're going to get a European to sit belted-in for any length of time come hell or high water. They're always standing around, blocking aisles, and just waiting to become flying cabin debris.
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Euro debris, I like it.
 
wheelsup said:
Stuff was thrown everywhere, people were screaming, and IIRC 5 of the injured were crew. Call it whatever you want - smooth, light, mod, severe, extreme - I don't really care but to downplay the significance of the event isn't bright. People - our customers - are in general slightly afraid to fly as it is, this just makes it worse. They had a right to be scared, did you watch the video?
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I understand your point... This was a dangerous situation that caused injury. But this being an aviation forum, with a post titled "Extremely Severe Turbulence...", presumably posted by a pilot, I felt a correction in the definition was warranted.

Almost every time I look at the DEN departure ATIS, there is a a PIREP of moderate and sometimes even severe. Yet when we go into the area, it's not even moderate. Turbulence is WAY mis-reported by pilots in my experience.
 
I believe "turbulence" is skewed between freight and airline pilots. I've been with a couple CFI to jet captains and they reported moderate - severe to ATC, when it was no more than chop - light.

This is the same for pilots and the general passenger. Passengers rarely experience anything other than light chop. So when they experience moderate, they think the wings are going to fall off.
 
I had an SLC -TEB trip in the X. Over the Rockies we hit turbulence so bad we were +/- 300 feet and I had the power to idle a couple of times to stop an overspeed. The X starts to roll around as well so there was at times a lot of bank. I could only hear screaming from the back. After it was all said and done I went back to check on the PAX. The kids were screaming because they thought it was so fun and mom and dad were just fine. I think I was more concerned than the PAX. Definitely the worst ride I've ever been in.
 
Goes back to the old analogy...... light is when the coffee in your cup has the little ripples on it like when you are blowing on it to cool it off and make it drinkable, moderate is when the coffee will slop a little here and there over the side of the cup and you have to hold it out in front of you a bit to drink from it, severe is when the white caps form in your cup and you probably got some on your shirt and on your boys, extreme is when the coffee is all over the office, your F/O gives you "the look", and the FAs call up front threatening to beat your ass when you land. Good luck trying to get some extra snacks/desserts after that.
 
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A Life Aloft said:
Goes back to the old analogy...... light is when the coffee in your cup has the little ripples on it like when you are blowing on it to cool it off and make it drinkable, moderate is when the coffee will slop a little here and there over the side of the cup and you have to hold it out in front of you a bit to drink from it, severe is when the white caps form in your cup and you probably got some on your shirt and on your boys, extreme is when the coffee is all over the office, your F/O gives you "the look", and the FAs call up front threatening to beat your ass when you land.
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I bet that most here have never experienced severe turbulence. I've experienced legit moderate that has put a scare in me, and had both of us worried about the FAs and pax. Severe is a loss of control of the aircraft, and somebody is most likely hurt. The instruments would be unreadable, and hopefully something doesn't break.

I'm certainly no expert, and consider myself a low time pilot at about 4600 hours. But I do regularly fly in and out of places like RNO, COS, ASE, JAC, COD, etc. I think I have a higher exposure to turbulence than most pilots, and would venture to guess that since I've never experienced severe, it is quite a rare phenomena for most.
 
I wonder what altitude and routes Delta was using that day out of Japan. NWA brought them the world's best airline turbulence and mountain wave avoidance program as a result of the merger.
 
GypsyPilot said:
I bet that most here have never experienced severe turbulence. I've experienced legit moderate that has put a scare in me, and had both of us worried about the FAs and pax. Severe is a loss of control of the aircraft, and somebody is most likely hurt. The instruments would be unreadable, and hopefully something doesn't break.

I'm certainly no expert, and consider myself a low time pilot at about 4600 hours. But I do regularly fly in and out of places like RNO, COS, ASE, JAC, COD, etc. I think I have a higher exposure to turbulence than most pilots, and would venture to guess that since I've never experienced severe, it is quite a rare phenomena for most.
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The old analogy was just a shot of some brevity. No one is really downplaying the effects of severe or even moderate turbulence. In severe you aren't even able to clearly read your instruments and the likelihood of some type of damage to the aircraft is very real. Controlling the aircraft for a time is impossible. That is the worst feeling, along with the "sounds". For me those issues were far more disturbing than the shaking/shuddering or dropping. I have experienced moderate several times abroad and it was never a picnic, but nothing to be hysterical over either. That was my point. And no one ever wants/wishes any harm to come to their crew or the pax. This is the issue with typing something/reading something versus being able to speak/communicate and explain something in person, I think. I have only had one severe episode in my life and certainly wouldn't want to have another. So yes it is not that common, but it happens.
 
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killbilly said:
That's the thing, though. I don't mean any disrespect, but it doesn't matter what a bunch of pilots think.

People get scared because they do not understand what's going on and they have zero control over what is happening to them. Their instincts are to do something, ANYTHING, to alleviate fear reactions and they can't.

Doesn't matter what we think. It matters that these folks were scared crapless.
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It certainly does matter what a pilot thinks, even more important is what a pilot reports. Passengers look to pilots as an authority on this stuff, same as an FA. When they look scared, passengers should be to. When they don't look scared, no reason to be. It's a crews job to ease passengers fears, for the exact reasons you talk about.

IMO, all to often, pilots over report turbulence, but under prepare for it. When you know it's coming, sit their assess down, tell them it's coming, and that they need to stay seated AND buckled. When it isn't all that bad, as in your coffee hasn't spilled, it's not freaking moderate, it's just uncomfortable.
 
The most notable case of "extreme" turbulence in an airliner I can think of off the top of my head did actually happen in Japan. BOAC flight 911 was a 707 that got ripped to shreds by a wave of extreme turbulence. The tailfin got forced into the fuselage then ripped off along with all 4 engines, then split in half and fell into the mountains below. The turbulence was so bad that the pilot of an A-4 Skyhawk sent to go look for the wreckage right after the crash was quoted saying he "seriously thought the airplane was going to become unglued" and wasn't even sure how he survived and regained control, the plane was taken out of service upon landing.

An eerie thing about that crash is that the day before, a Canadian Pacific DC-8 balled up on landing in Haneda killing most on board and someone actually got a shot of BOAC 911 taxiing past the wreckage of the DC-8, who would have thought that soon everyone on board would be dead? People also shot the aircraft boarding with pax going up the airstairs and falling apart in the air before the crash.
081030_boac_01.jpg
 
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ChasenSFO said:
The most notable case of "extreme" turbulence in an airliner I can think of off the top of my head did actually happen in Japan. BOAC flight 911 was a 707 that got ripped to shreds by a wave of extreme turbulence.
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That aircraft got caught up in a mountain wave generated by Mount Fuji, as I recall. Here's a photo of what was left of the aircraft as it fell:

images
 
killbilly said:
That's the thing, though. I don't mean any disrespect, but it doesn't matter what a bunch of pilots think.

People get scared because they do not understand what's going on and they have zero control over what is happening to them. Their instincts are to do something, ANYTHING, to alleviate fear reactions and they can't.

Doesn't matter what we think. It matters that these folks were scared crapless.
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You should be a reporter for CNN.
 
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