Endeavor flight gone awry

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

And the DOT calls it that too? Maybe I should call it tarmac...

Well we pilots don't make these rules, we just follow them. Actually, if certain CAs had the guts to exercise their PIC duties the 3 hr rule would never have come about. Instead, they let others run their plane until eventually the traveling public got fed up and forced the airlines' hands by lobbying and passing laws regarding this very thing.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Well we pilots don't make these rules, we just follow them. Actually, if certain CAs had the guts to exercise their PIC duties the 3 hr rule would never have come about. Instead, they let others run their plane until eventually the traveling public got fed up and forced the airlines' hands by lobbying and passing laws regarding this very thing.

Best not forget the JetBlue Valentines day Mascre that loosened the lid on the jar. Regulation happens

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Best not forget the JetBlue Valentines day Mascre that loosened the lid on the jar. Regulation happens

That was entirely JetBlue's fault and their operation mode of go, go, go and never cancel. Things have since changed but even earlier this year JetBlue had a complete meltdown and basically had to hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete on the entire operation (except LGB). This second fiasco was entirely preventable.

 

[jynxyjoe]

That was entirely JetBlue's fault and their operation mode of go, go, go and never cancel. Things have since changed but even earlier this year JetBlue had a complete meltdown and basically had to hit Ctrl-Alt-Delete on the entire operation (except LGB). This second fiasco was entirely preventable.

I don't disagree with any of that, however, the regulation came about thanks to a culture in the airlines of abusing the pax a little. JetBlue did it in such a massive and public way that the Expressjet crew, or whoever, up in SD became the last straw. You can't lay the regs at one crews feet. There was a very real, systematic approach encouraged by all the airlines, that led to that new reg.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I don't disagree with any of that, however, the regulation came about thanks to a culture in the airlines of abusing the pax a little. JetBlue did it in such a massive and public way that the Expressjet crew, or whoever, up in SD became the last straw. You can't lay the regs at one crews feet. There was a very real, systematic approach encouraged by all the airlines, that led to that new reg.

True, but on the same token you can't just blame JetBlue for an entire industry reg.

 

[jynxyjoe]

True, but on the same token you can't just blame JetBlue for an entire industry reg.

I didn't. You blamed the one crew in SD and I then said don't forget the JetBlue massacre and an entire industry who set up that reg, your example was the last straw. I don't know how to be more clear than that.

 

[ChasenSFO]

“Despite the situation, our operations staff was sensitive to the fact that the pilot wanted to deplane the passengers even though it’s not our job to pull up the jetway,” she said.

Yes, customer satisfaction is not your job....

If they aren't trained on operating the jetway, as most below wing employees are NOT, then yeah, not their job and they're in deep crap if they hit the plane, or a ramper, or anything else.

As a ramper, I met planes with jetways a few times even though United took the above wing contract and I wasn't supposed to do it. They obviously never complained that I met a plane when they didn't show up. But, I was certified on that jetbridge at the end of the day as I drove it many times before as a gate agent. Had I not been, I wouldn't have touched it. And now that most of the people from the SkyWest CS days have left SFO, the vast majority of rampers can't and won't meet planes anymore. UA runs those gate agents on their "Express" operation thin, so these days RJs hold pretty often for gates. Which brings up another point about these situations, the RJs have stairs, why hold 30 minutes for a jetway driver? Well, if the plane is at a jetbridge gate, and the CA elects to ground board with no turbo ramp and someone takes a spill(happens fairly often), someone is in trouble. If pax take a spill going up the stairs to the terminal, and it is clear there was a jetway issue, there will be a lawsuit most likely. Sadly, seen both happen. Yet, if the plane was just gate changed to a no-jetway gate, then there the liabilities are right out the window. Nice world we live in.

 

[jynxyjoe]

"Express" operation thin, so these days RJs hold pretty often for gates. Which brings up another point about these situations, the RJs have stairs, why hold 30 minutes for a jetway driver?

So you got them off, then what? The crew and passengers can go up to the terminal and try doors and hit green buttons praying one will get them out of the AOA without setting off any alarms? The airport had things figured out more or less, it just took them 30 minutes to get their poop in a group, and that's perfectly reasonable.

 

[jtrain609]

I didn't. You blamed the one crew in SD and I then said don't forget the JetBlue massacre and an entire industry who set up that reg, your example was the last straw. I don't know how to be more clear than that.

MN, and if you heard the tape of that captain being on the phone all night with SOCC trying to fix the problem, well, folks would probably feel a little differently about what happened.

She was pretty pissed and let everybody she could get on the phone know about it.

 

[jynxyjoe]

MN, and if you heard the tape of that captain being on the phone all night with SOCC trying to fix the problem, well, folks would probably feel a little differently about what happened.

She was pretty pissed and let everybody she could get on the phone know about it.

Hey man I'm not the one that said that the regs were around simply because that crew's captain let everyone run her ship. I did my best to level the blame at all airline culture and giant clusters that paved the way (in the past) to get us the current regs.

I believe I've heard a sampling of the calls, but I don't remember a womans voice-anyway- my memory is what it is and I thought she was very good at communicating the problem. She's probably great at a many things but this situation got the better of her.

Airline culture is a horrible thing when it's bad, and all airlines were guilty. That culture penitrates it's pilots like water to soil... I have other choice vulgar comparisons but I'm sure thatll grt bleeped. Sometimes you have to find a way to look at a situation from outside yourself. I read a biography about Lincoln years ago and he had that gift though I don't know if it's a talent everyone has. Take yourself out of the moment and judge if the situation is reasonable, when it is not, have a mind to fix it.

That captain and FO don't need to be told that, but it's a worthy reminder to me and anyone reading. Airlines like Delta have pushed JFK crews to keep the door cracked at the bus terminal gates (what i call the U) at terminal 2 so theres no measure of 3 hours. I think Endeavor crews did a good job of ignoring that little bit of stupid while I was there. Then they migrated to having us come back to the ramp, pop the door, and run back out without letting the pax off. If Delta does I'm sure the rest do too with varying success. Wasn't too successful with us but obviously it worked with some crews because ops was shocked when we told them we were parking ourselves and escorting the pax if that's what it took... it was a long day.

 

[ChasenSFO]

So you got them off, then what? The crew and passengers can go up to the terminal and try doors and hit green buttons praying one will get them out of the AOA without setting off any alarms? The airport had things figured out more or less, it just took them 30 minutes to get their poop in a group, and that's perfectly reasonable.

We have Airserv agents that are paid very well just to open said doors here.

 

[jynxyjoe]

We have Airserv agents that are paid very well just to open said doors here.

Well in my experience, 2am (when this flight arrived) is not the time to be exploring around a dark ramp, opening random doors. If the Airserv agents were there (which is sounds like everyone had gone home except for the cleaners), that would be a happy convenience. I have no problem letting on airport professionals handle a pop up flight when all of Delta has gone home... although about 4:30am I bet a couple would have been coming back to work. Anyway, point being, it seems like the crew did the right thing in my mind. Wait 30 minutes versus sending the FO to poke around with no SIDA is the kind of choice that pretty much makes itself.