Endeavor ALPA to publish delinquent dues'rs

PhilosopherPilot said:
Prior to my aviation career I worked for a non-union flooring company. There was a union challenge that was defeated, and my tires WERE slashed. So yeah. I have a bad taste for unions.

In the airlines tires may not be slashed, but the same mentality is there. The same psychological manipulations are there. The same anti-intellectualism is there. If you think for yourself, that's seen as a threat. I dislike it. Strongly.
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Anti-intellectualism? I'm really confused by that and I'd really like to understand what you mean?

My experience has been that the union brings logic to a decision which is otherwise being completely driven by emotion. Also, that's generally seems to be the source of a lot if anger toward the union.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
The emotions you see here have nothing to do with the bill. Go back and search the posts of these guys from long before they left and got a bill. You'll see that they have been hostile towards ALPA before they ever left their ALPA carrier. This is just the latest excuse for their irrational hatred of the organization that defends their profession.
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That is the point though. They get a bill with minimal explanation and it immediately spikes their BS meter along with bringing back what they don't like about ALPA. They just feel like they are getting screwed over again. The bill adds to the emotions which is the last thing you would think ALPA would want to do when trying to collect dues owed. It just results in what you see here.

Whether or not their hatred is rational or not, a bill with minimal explanation really isn't exactly professional either. There are only 24 paychecks in a year so it isn't like it would be hard to list the ones that the company screwed up.
 
Derg said:
Let's step away from the name calling, folks.

Here's the deal, it's a good discussion. And I've beat down some of you that are participating in this thread, in other threads. In fact, that person is handling being called names is handling it very commendably, but if I let this thread go all "UFC" with the name calling, it's going to be complete anarchy.

I don't recall seeing the word "Prick" in Dale Carnegie's book.
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Are you surprised? This is so common now in so many threads in the Airline pilot section of JC.......aka APC-Lite...... that its no longer surprising. This is just this neighborhoods vibe brother. Fence it off like its own District 9. :)
 
Maurus said:
That is the point though. They get a bill with minimal explanation and it immediately spikes their BS meter along with bringing back what they don't like about ALPA.
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I'm not sure that I believe the premise. When I got a bill, there was an explanation included. When the AirTran pilots got a bill a few years ago after an audit, there was an explanation included. This is the first I'm hearing of no explanation being included, so I'm skeptical. I intend to find out when I'm up in Herndon next, though.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not sure that I believe the premise. When I got a bill, there was an explanation included. When the AirTran pilots got a bill a few years ago after an audit, there was an explanation included. This is the first I'm hearing of no explanation being included, so I'm skeptical. I intend to find out when I'm up in Herndon next, though.
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Right. My argument is based on only one thing. It really depends on where the truth lies.

If they are telling the truth about a minimalist bill then I can see where they are coming from.
 
jynxyjoe said:
I do, if for nothing else but the cost of a window, or a knee.
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My point is that it's the same mentality, one just has a bit more self control.

Guys, I know I'm in the minority in my dislike of labor unions. It's no accident that I work for a non union airline now, though for safety reasons we do need a CBA. I know that the members are good and smart people who are trying to do the right thing, for the most part...

The trick is keeping the really bitter guys with an axe to grind OUT of elected positions and committees. As a newly unionized carrier (assuming the election goes as planned)we need to be sure that we have a large voting block so that a small faction cannot manipulate the group.

A lot of the problems at the regional level stem from voter apathy, which makes it very easy for a small group of people to drive the election their way. That's not good for anybody.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not sure that I believe the premise. When I got a bill, there was an explanation included. When the AirTran pilots got a bill a few years ago after an audit, there was an explanation included. This is the first I'm hearing of no explanation being included, so I'm skeptical. I intend to find out when I'm up in Herndon next, though.
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I only mentioned "no explanation" almost every time. Others have no spoke up with the same. I'm thinking tactics have changed somewhere. Trust me, if the bill had said "you owe this because of this," I'd be much more inclined to believe it. As of now, it says "you owe this because, we're ALPA and reasons."
 
I know you said it, but I'm having a hard time believing it. Not calling you a liar, but it's certainly possible that you missed an extra piece of paper in the envelope or something. Like I said, I'll look into it. But regardless, simply ignoring it instead of calling Herndon to find out what it's about is not ethical.
 
I've had a long standing rule. If an organization can't explain to me what I'm paying for and why I'm paying it, then I'm not paying for it until you find someone who can explain it.

Recently, I was notified by a collections agency saying I owed my previous internet service provider a $127. I called to get it straightened out and was routinely told, "You canceled your account so long ago, we don't know what it's for. Just pay it and it will go away." Having not been notified before this that there was any outstanding amount and knowing that I owed zilch, I stood my ground. I was transferred 7 times before I reached the accounting office who informed me the bill was for "unreturned leased equipment". I had intact returned it and still had the tracking number and informed them of this fact. The matter is supposed to be settled now, but my next credit report will tell all.

A lot of organizations in general are running fast and loose with billing as a result of short staffing, disconnected processes and crappy technology systems. It's probably easier just to pay it, but I choose to stand on principle. Sure, it took me 4.75 hours to get it settled, but I will not bend over because a company is incompetent in their business processes. Stuff falls through the cracks all the time. Don't be a victim, but don't be a thief.

If you are unsure of billing statement you receive, don't ignore it. It will not usually just go away. Call the company and ask for an explanation. What is this bill for? What were the dates of service I'm being billed for? How did you come up with this number? What is the billing history on it? If you don't get the answers you need, ask to be transferred who does know. Be your own advocate.
 
Meh. Alpa had issues getting me a bill for a while in the beginning. They never managed to get me any membership materials in the mail. I actually did speak to membership services, and their response was "just send a check". Keep in mind I still hadn't received my membership number via any means except over the phone. Updated my address in case it was the mail sorter ( our addy was 24B, a lot of time out mail went to 248... No biggie.... Still never got a bill.

Signed up for dues check off as soon as it was available, called to get something set up to pay the back due amount. STILL never got a bill. Spent way too much time trying to fix it. Finally they emailed me a bill showing I owed $-213 ( credit). (Never got a paper bill) Which was obviously wrong. Got so frustrated with it, I gave up.

I wasn't paying a bill they couldn't get me. I was pretty pro ALPA. It did a lot for Colgan guys. The support after 3407 was fantastic.

All that being said, if they can't even manage to get me a correct bill after calling many times, then I'm not going to blindly send checks. If they didn't want to put the effort in to get my stuff right, then obviously they weren't concerned with my dues.
 
TUCKnTRUCK said:
Meh. Alpa had issues getting me a bill for a while in the beginning. They never managed to get me any membership materials in the mail. I actually did speak to membership services, and their response was "just send a check". Keep in mind I still hadn't received my membership number via any means except over the phone. Updated my address in case it was the mail sorter ( our addy was 24B, a lot of time out mail went to 248... No biggie.... Still never got a bill.

Signed up for dues check off as soon as it was available, called to get something set up to pay the back due amount. STILL never got a bill. Spent way too much time trying to fix it. Finally they emailed me a bill showing I owed $-213 ( credit). (Never got a paper bill) Which was obviously wrong. Got so frustrated with it, I gave up.

I wasn't paying a bill they couldn't get me. I was pretty pro ALPA. It did a lot for Colgan guys. The support after 3407 was fantastic.

All that being said, if they can't even manage to get me a correct bill after calling many times, then I'm not going to blindly send checks. If they didn't want to put the effort in to get my stuff right, then obviously they weren't concerned with my dues.
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I don't blame you for not being willing to blindly send checks out. I hope you documented the dates of your conversations, who you spoke with, and what was discussed.

When I run into problems like this, I always do one final attempt via standard or certified mail. I get the mailing address for someone higher up in the organization and send a letter detailing my attempts to settle the matter. I conclude the letter with phraseology to the effect of "As you will see I have attempted to settle this matter over the last x weeks and y phone calls without success. I am unwilling to pay any amount without a specific and detailed bill including itemization of the charges, fees, dates of service/representation as well as any payments that have been made to date. If I do not receive a legitimate and detailed itemization of the outstanding amount within the next 60(or 90 if you want to be nice) days, I will consider the matter settled. Thank you for your assistance."
 
exneophyte said:
I don't blame you for not being willing to blindly send checks out. I hope you documented the dates of your conversations, who you spoke with, and what was discussed.

When I run into problems like this, I always do one final attempt via standard or certified mail. I get the mailing address for someone higher up in the organization and send a letter detailing my attempts to settle the matter. I conclude the letter with phraseology to the effect of "As you will see I have attempted to settle this matter over the last x weeks and y phone calls without success. I am unwilling to pay any amount without a specific and detailed bill including itemization of the charges, fees, dates of service/representation as well as any payments that have been made to date. If I do not receive a legitimate and detailed itemization of the outstanding amount within the next 60(or 90 if you want to be nice) days, I will consider the matter settled. Thank you for your assistance."
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I still have the e-mails / email chain.

They were never able to get me an amount owed in print, and I've got a bill showing that they owe me money.. Somebody else can lose sleep over it at this point. I've moved on.
 
kellwolf said:
How about "union bully?" That better for ya? End result is the same: intimidation in order to get a desired result.
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Lol... wut?

Your example is a little better by itself, but discussions about psychologically bullying versus property damage vs busted knee caps all being the same is a silly premise to me.

It could just be me, but obviously Philosphy Pilot is sticking to his guns so it's real to him, but the comedy is real to me. I'm just a little too far away from you all on this particular topic.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Lol... wut?

Your example is a little better by itself, but discussions about psychologically bullying versus property damage vs busted knee caps all being the same is a silly premise to me.

It could just be me, but obviously Philosphy Pilot is sticking to his guns so it's real to him, but the comedy is real to me. I'm just a little too far away from you all on this particular topic.
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Obviously it isn't exactly the same (busted kneecaps vs. bullying), but it is the same mentality. I really have a tough time with the bullying that goes on with respect to unions. For a significant number of union supporters, if you disagree with them, you deserve to be ostracized, names put on lists, etc. etc. That's BS. Even in this very thread ATN_pilot said that my name belongs on the "non-member" list. That is a non-so-subtle way of saying that since I don't toe the party line, I deserve to be treated differently.

To answer the guy from way back, that's the anti-intellectual part. If you think for yourself, and that thought is in any way different from the party line, you are considered an outsider. That disincentivises any unique or outside the box thinking. Unions do not value diversity of thought within their ranks. They value homogeneity. Everyone is in agreement, all nodding together.
 
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