Emirates near disaster on takeoff

[TWP]

Nothing screams experience like 200 hours in a simulator, doing fully scripted events where the worst thing that can happen is that you drop your bag of Funions.

Yup.

You’ll never have these moments where you’re alone and you make a mistake that demonstrates just how much you still have to learn. That bolt of fear and having to shove it down to fix said mistake will also never happen.

Experience is being alone, without the training wheels, for a long time. This program simply cannot provide that.

 

[Wardogg]

Yup.

You’ll never have these moments where you’re alone and you make a mistake that demonstrates just how much you still have to learn. That bolt of fear and having to shove it down to fix said mistake will also never happen.

Experience is being alone, without the training wheels, for a long time. This program simply cannot provide that.

I would argue neither does 1500 hours of pipeline. Or banner towing. Or even CFI'ing, especially 141. Some of these schools I heard of have scripted routes to take when building time for the commercial rating. At least my school gave us a 350 mile leash to go where we pleased.

None of that prepares you...or has you ready for regional jet magenta flying. It just doesn't.

Want to up airmanship before you go to the regionals, put a 50 hour tailwheel requirement on there.
Want to up airmanship before you go to the regionals, make the IFR requirement non simulated.

Those are the areas, where what you say makes you a better pilot, happens.

 

[TWP]

I would argue neither does 1500 hours of pipeline. Or banner towing. Or even CFI'ing, especially 141. Some of these schools I heard of have scripted routes to take when building time for the commercial rating. At least my school gave us a 350 mile leash to go where we pleased.

None of that prepares you...or has you ready for regional jet magenta flying. It just doesn't.

Want to up airmanship before you go to the regionals, put a 50 hour tailwheel requirement on there.
Want to up airmanship before you go to the regionals, make the IFR requirement non simulated.

Those are the areas, where what you say makes you a better pilot, happens.

The point is, this program guarantees it doesn’t happen. 1500 hours there’s at least a chance.

I agree with the IFR requirement. CFII with a couple students having passed on the first try would be a requirement at my imaginary airline as well.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I would say the 1,500 hour rule will be dropped in the coming years but someone will rightfully point out that I said the same thing a few years ago.

The 2013 FAA Rule That’s Being Blamed for Today’s Pilot Shortage

As travel rebounds from the pandemic, carriers big and small are scrambling to hire pilots. But some airline executives say a 2013 regulation is standing in the way, and they want the government to revisit the so-called 1,500-hour rule. WSJ’s Shelby Holliday explains. Photo: David Fang for WSJ

www.wsj.com

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I’m fine with an initio programs as long as the selection process is rigorous and the washout rate is non-zero. Essentially the opposite of JetU.

But I’d be really worried that you would end up with a bunch of rich kids whose powerful parents bribed their way into the program…I mean that happens here.

I guess ignorance is bliss. While jet U accepted everybody, the washout rate was HIGH. As for making it to Pinnacle, in the end it was 75ish at best. I don’t recall exact numbers but they had a couple hundred student base in their relatively short existence 2006 - March 2008 basically.

But I agree with you on the selection process. Just having money, rich parents, or the ability to sign a loan should not guarantee admission into an ab-initio program.

 

[Richman]

I would say the 1,500 hour rule will be dropped in the coming years but someone will rightfully point out that I said the same thing a few years ago.

The 2013 FAA Rule That’s Being Blamed for Today’s Pilot Shortage

As travel rebounds from the pandemic, carriers big and small are scrambling to hire pilots. But some airline executives say a 2013 regulation is standing in the way, and they want the government to revisit the so-called 1,500-hour rule. WSJ’s Shelby Holliday explains. Photo: David Fang for WSJ

www.wsj.com

I'm going to disagree. By hook or by crook, the fatalities dropped precipitously after the introduction of the ATP rule.

Ain't no Congress Critter anywhere going to vote that change, and face the repercussions of an accident.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I'm going to disagree. By hook or by crook, the fatalities dropped precipitously after the introduction of the ATP rule.

Ain't no Congress Critter anywhere going to vote that change, and face the repercussions of an accident.

The Congressman with KBFE in their district that just lost its RJ service might.

 

[Richman]

HAHA. I don't know how many times F/O's asked me if I wanted to recruise a after a level off when it was my leg. I was always like, sure, whatever floats your boat. Then I'd put it back in VNAV. Then I'd use FLCH to start down later. I think they all thought I was nuts not to use VNAV more. Just and old 727 guy.

As long as you pronounced it "filtch" and not "feltch", you're ok.

 

[killbilly]

I would argue neither does 1500 hours of pipeline. Or banner towing. Or even CFI'ing, especially 141. Some of these schools I heard of have scripted routes to take when building time for the commercial rating. At least my school gave us a 350 mile leash to go where we pleased.

Man, I don't know if I'm a substandard hack of a pilot or not, but I've got a strong pass rate and I've sent some kids to the service academies and all of my students are still alive, so I'm hoping I at least don't suck as a CFI in a primarily-141 school.

141 programs are required to define training routes for the students for all certificates and ratings they teach. I've got a pretty broad menu of routes to select from when I send students out on XC flights.

It's also customary that the designated Chief or Assistant Chief can approve ad-hoc routes if it makes sense to do so. There's quite a bit of latitude there.

 

[Roger Roger]

Man, I don't know if I'm a substandard hack of a pilot or not, but I've got a strong pass rate and I've sent some kids to the service academies and all of my students are still alive, so I'm hoping I at least don't suck as a CFI in a primarily-141 school.

141 programs are required to define training routes for the students for all certificates and ratings they teach. I've got a pretty broad menu of routes to select from when I send students out on XC flights.

It's also customary that the designated Chief or Assistant Chief can approve ad-hoc routes if it makes sense to do so. There's quite a bit of latitude there.

Has that always been true? It’s been 10+ years but I thought the only reason for the pre-canned routes was convenience. Because it was a major bummer when someone went to take their checkride and the DPE found that an instructors cool, creative route they came up with was missing one of the arcane 141 requirements like “must have one leg between 200-250 NM at night under a new moon and involve a circling approach to a missed”
I don’t remember needing to get clearance to deviate from the usual x-c circuits, it was just on the instructor to make sure they checked all the boxes.

 

[Richman]

The Congressman with KBFE in their district that just lost its RJ service might.

If there was a no or minimum safety impact, maybe.

Correlation is not causation, but the drop in fatalities just after the implementation makes for a powerful press release for your opponent or a group like the Colgan families. No one wants their name attached to that.

Quite frankly, places with zero air service where you can’t either drive a bit or that places like Cape Air haven’t backfilled are pretty limited.
The only people agitating for this are the puppy mills, the universities and managements looking to bottom deal.

 

[killbilly]

Has that always been true? It’s been 10+ years but I thought the only reason for the pre-canned routes was convenience. Because it was a major bummer when someone went to take their checkride and the DPE found that an instructors cool, creative route they came up with was missing one of the arcane 141 requirements like “must have one leg between 200-250 NM at night under a new moon and involve a circling approach to a missed”
I don’t remember needing to get clearance to deviate from the usual x-c circuits, it was just on the instructor to make sure they checked all the boxes.

Honestly, I don't know the specific reason, but I do know that the route creation was part of getting the 141 program approved. Each 141 program is unique, apparently, so the parameters may vary from program to program and FSDO to FSDO.

 

[Wardogg]

Man, I don't know if I'm a substandard hack of a pilot or not, but I've got a strong pass rate and I've sent some kids to the service academies and all of my students are still alive, so I'm hoping I at least don't suck as a CFI in a primarily-141 school.

141 programs are required to define training routes for the students for all certificates and ratings they teach. I've got a pretty broad menu of routes to select from when I send students out on XC flights.

It's also customary that the designated Chief or Assistant Chief can approve ad-hoc routes if it makes sense to do so. There's quite a bit of latitude there.

I'm a product of 141 myself. And taught there as well. I'm not saying that those programs produce bad pilots. I am saying canned routes takes some of the ADM out of it.

The 1500 rule is an arbitrary number that made someone feel good. Especially considering all the caveats they put on it to reduce the hours needed. Got a degree? 500 hours off. For what? Because I got a B in aviation weather? Because I got a C in Calculus? That makes me qualified to go to the regionals at 1000 hours? I'll blow your mind even more. 15 years as a military FE earned me another 500 hours off. So with the degree and my FE time I could have been sitting right seat at a regional near you at 500 hours of logged "stick and rudder" time. Which would have equated to about 250 of training to get my commercial ticket and 250 of CFI'ing. Does that make me ready for the regionals? I dunno. Passed first time through. No issues. No redos. Top 5 in my class and I believe first on the line. I would argue those "500 FE hours" which actually equates to 20 years/6000 hours of military aviation(15 years/5000 hours as part of a cockpit crew) prepared me way more than the stick and rudder time I did have going in.

 

[Hiboglossi]

Come on now!
The 250 hour FO was the standard for 40+ years until suddenly it wasn’t.

It was legal, but I don't think it was ever the norm except around 2007 or with PFJ programs.

 

[killbilly]

I'm a product of 141 myself. And taught there as well. I'm not saying that those programs produce bad pilots. I am saying canned routes takes some of the ADM out of it.

How so? I don't understand how having a pre-approved route takes out the ADM?

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Ok. So let's for a minute set aside the argument of whether 1500 hours experience has value or not. We aren't going to agree and, I can't speak for you, but nobody is knocking on my door asking for my thoughts on the topic.

Let's talk instead about supply and demand. It's easy to see at the regional level, where companies have stepped all over one another to offer signing bonuses and retention bonuses and flow through bonuses. They have cadet programs and tuition assistance and more! They threw a lot of money at the problem but were very careful not to codify any of it into a CBA. Why would they? They're hoping to go RIGHT BACK to their B scale business plan the moment the crisis has passed.

At the majors we are only beginning to see pattern bargaining resulting in massive raises at Sun Country, B-fund retirement increases that make it so FOs can quickly max out their retirement contribution without a penny out of pocket, and W2s well north of $200,000.

They're competing for a limited resource. Well qualified talent.

Flooding the market with the equivalent of a vo-tech school where any clown who can pass a drug test can become a right seat button pusher only devalues the time, effort, and hard work it takes to become a pilot. Ultimately, increased supply means demand will be met without even trying. Before you know it we'll all be Atlas...

So tuition assistance, scholarships, grants... I'm onboard. But there has to be hard work and sacrifice to reach for the golden ring. If it was easy, everybody would do it.

 

[Wardogg]

How so? I don't understand how having a pre-approved route takes out the ADM?

If I give you the option of any airport within a 350 mile radius doesn't that take a little more effort than grabbing a canned route from point A to point B with fuel numbers and checkpoint times already computed for you?

 

[mikecweb]

As long as you pronounced it "filtch" and not "feltch", you're ok.

“Feltch Me”

 

[killbilly]

If I give you the option of any airport within a 350 mile radius doesn't that take a little more effort than grabbing a canned route from point A to point B with fuel numbers and checkpoint times already computed for you?

I get that, but at least where I teach, the only thing "given" is the specific airports and what the total mileage is. The student still has to figure out fuel, checkpoints, the order of the route flown - all of that. The only thing that's canned is the fact that it's Airports X, Y and Z, for example. It's still new to the student and they still have to do all the things required to manage the flight. And, again, the Chiefs can approve alternate plans/asks.

 

[Richman]

It was legal, but I don't think it was ever the norm except around 2007 or with PFJ programs.

Agreed. With the exception of the 2006-07 blip, it was NEVER the norm, even back in the days of “scheduled 135”.

1000/100 were the absolute mins during times of 100% annual turnover. Outside of that, typical mins were 1500/300 at the ass-bag outfits, and any place decent was much higher.

Insurance Is the true regulator.