Emirates near disaster on takeoff

[T/O w/FSII]

Anytime someone takes off with their mode c off or entire transponder off I can’t help but wonder what other checklist items they skipped over.

It’s generally a tiny box with a tiny window with a tiny knob or button that’s shoved to some obscure location below and or behind you on the central pedestal that has to be off (but yet still on) during the whole time on the ramp.

Super easy to miss. Also, it won’t kill you. So even easier to miss.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

Isn’t everything left in the on position and controlled by the avionics master?

Oh god

 

[ctab5060X]

737NG:

So if you’re flying a RNAV or a LOC approach into SFO or JFK, what do you set in the window when you’re in LNAV and VNAV PTH and cleared for the approach?

Mins rounded to the nearest higher hundred.

At the FAF and more than 400 below the Missed Approach altitude, we set the altitude on the MCP to the altitude published on the chart.

 

[tlove482]

Isn't the PF usually looking outside while the PM watches inside? Why would you be looking at the flight director at that point?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

You set the published minimums. Once you are 300 feet below the missed approach alttiude you set the missed approach altitude, the airplane remains in VNAV PTH:

When the FMC is “on approach”, the following features are available:
• the IAS/MACH window can be opened and the command speed can be
set while VNAV remains in VNAV PTH descent; VNAV commands the
set speed
• the MCP altitude can be set above the airplane altitude for the missed
approach. When the MCP altitude setting is at least 300 feet above the
current airplane altitude, VNAV continues to command a descent


Sorry, that is from the B777 FCOM. The applicable page in the current Boeing B737NG FCOM is Chapter 11, 11.31.39

Oh.

I see it. But our procedures are to set field elevation and leave it that way and fly it down in LNAV/VNAV PTH.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Mins rounded to the nearest higher hundred.

At the FAF and more than 400 below the Missed Approach altitude, we set the altitude on the MCP to the altitude published on the chart.

What airline is this?

 

[ctab5060X]

What airline is this?

AA

 

[CFI A&P]

Isn’t everything left in the on position and controlled by the avionics master?

I’ve never flown a kerosene burning aircraft that had an avionics master in the same sense as a GA airplane. Engineers and their pesky essential/ emergency busses and stuff.

What airline is this?

Did you see their avatar ? Clearly Sun Country. (sarcasm)

 

[Pilot Fighter]

Here, if you're double crewed, and at the C/A's discretion, one can sit it out. That is, for example, the R/O could be in the cockpit for takeoff and the FO2 for landing, or vice versa. Makes sense, imho, as the guy in the #4 seat can't see very much at all.

Don't you want three up front in case you want to put something to a vote?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

AA

Oh ok. Hmm. I just assumed that’s how this plane did non precision. But I see that section of the SH.

Thanks guys

 

[Boris Badenov]

Don't you want three up front in case you want to put something to a vote?

Well yeah exactly, that's why the tie-breaker has to sit in the back. When it's time to make that split-second decision to abort the takeoff, there isn't time to have a tie-breaker, just count the votes and go through the inevitable procedural challenges, etc.

 

[DE727UPS]

I'd just be happy if they would realize you don't have to re-cruise the FMC EVERY DARNED TIME YOU LEVEL OFF. [emoji2959]

HAHA. I don't know how many times F/O's asked me if I wanted to recruise a after a level off when it was my leg. I was always like, sure, whatever floats your boat. Then I'd put it back in VNAV. Then I'd use FLCH to start down later. I think they all thought I was nuts not to use VNAV more. Just and old 727 guy.

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

HAHA. I don't know how many times F/O's asked me if I wanted to recruise a after a level off when it was my leg. I was always like, sure, whatever floats your boat. Then I'd put it back in VNAV. Then I'd use FLCH to start down later. I think they all thought I was nuts not to use VNAV more. Just and old 727 guy.

Pardon but- recruise?


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[BobDDuck]

Isn’t everything left in the on position and controlled by the avionics master?

No avionics master switch in transport category jets. Everything powers up (if it's turned in) when the plane powers up. As such some things like the transponder and radar are turned on or off via checklists.

The ADSB squitter is always on and isn't linked to the transponder box. About 90% of airports out there that use some level of surface surveillance radar want the transponder on from gate to Gaye, but there are a few (I'm looking at you ICN) that only want it on when you are off the ground. Because of that, we have to decide to put it in "on" or "auto" mode prior to pushing and after landing.

 

[GypsyPilot]

HAHA. I don't know how many times F/O's asked me if I wanted to recruise a after a level off when it was my leg. I was always like, sure, whatever floats your boat. Then I'd put it back in VNAV. Then I'd use FLCH to start down later. I think they all thought I was nuts not to use VNAV more. Just and old 727 guy.

None of that is even necessary during early descents (> 50 nm TOD), as the box essentially re-cruises itself (Cruise Descent) and recalculates a new TOD.

Lots of times I’ve had to just blow off VNAV and use FLCH or V/S like you though. Boeing VNAV PTH does some bizarre stuff sometimes. It will keep you protected in Path, but it’s far from efficient.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Pardon but- recruise?


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Once you begin a path descent in the 737 (at least one with common VNAV software as opposed to geometric) the airplane wants to continue its descent unless it is stopped by a constraint.

So let's say you're on your way down and ATC gives you a descent that would take you below the calculated descent path, to level at 10,000 feet.

The airplane would, of course, level at 10,000 feet. Now they say "cross XXX at 5000 feet".

If you go back into VNAV the airplane will begin a 1000 fpm descent until that calculated path (which is a steeper, idle path) catches up with you, then the thrust levers go to idle and you rejoin the path.

So in that case a lot of folks will "re-cruise" the FMC, or tell the airplane that 10,000 is the new cruise altitude so that it will calculate a new top of descent point so it won't start down out of 10,000 and slow right away, but rather will wait until it needs to to make the crossing restriction.

What irks me is when they recruise after every descent including little thousand foot letdowns while on vectors for an RNAV approach. You have to have a little bit of spatial awareness here. You can see on the display where the calculated path is. It's still there! You're just below it a few hundred feet.

So ask yourself, "what was that calculated descent rate looking at?" - in most cases the first fix on the RNAV approach. So it is probably ok when ATC gives you that lower altitude to remain in VNAV, let the airplane descent at 1000 fpm, knowing you'll reintercept that path at some point prior to, or right at the fix with the next constraint.

Instead its "descend and maintain 5" ok let's recruise...

"Descend and maintain 4" ok let's recruise...

"Descend and maintain 3" ok let's recruise. Geez man!

And I KNOW where they got the idea they had to do that. In the simulator when you are doing a dozen different approaches you recruise between each one because in that PARTICULAR case, there wasn't a calculated VNAV path to begin with!

I'm not saying it's never appropriate to recruise. If you get a crossing restriction that doesn't require you to begin a descent for many more miles... sure, create a new TOD and save some gas. But understand where the path currently is, what it's calculated to do, and then decide if you NEED to recruise or if you can let the airplane fly how it was designed to.

Way too many lab monkeys who are happy to push the button to get the food pellet but who don't actually understand how the systems work.

 

[ahw01]

Info I came across working on my masters a few years ago.

I’ll never search for a “source” again as long as I live. And I certainly ain’t gonna put it in APA format either.

Heck maybe I’m misremembering what I read and you even get your Hazaa! moment on the internet after you dig around on google. Have fun.

No it just goes counter to what I've heard. Mil far safer than Civ. Not trying to win the internet. Alex.

 

[zmiller4]

I’m fine with an initio programs as long as the selection process is rigorous and the washout rate is non-zero. Essentially the opposite of JetU.

But I’d be really worried that you would end up with a bunch of rich kids whose powerful parents bribed their way into the program…I mean that happens here.

more like 320-340 lol

Lol they would do this coming into Chicago regularly and then they’d argue with the controller after getting called on it in very serious German accents. “Vell ve vere tolt to maintain 310 knots!”

“At what altitude sir?”

“Flight lefel 240”

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Once you begin a path descent in the 737 (at least one with common VNAV software as opposed to geometric) the airplane wants to continue its descent unless it is stopped by a constraint.

So let's say you're on your way down and ATC gives you a descent that would take you below the calculated descent path, to level at 10,000 feet.

The airplane would, of course, level at 10,000 feet. Now they say "cross XXX at 5000 feet".

If you go back into VNAV the airplane will begin a 1000 fpm descent until that calculated path (which is a steeper, idle path) catches up with you, then the thrust levers go to idle and you rejoin the path.

So in that case a lot of folks will "re-cruise" the FMC, or tell the airplane that 10,000 is the new cruise altitude so that it will calculate a new top of descent point so it won't start down out of 10,000 and slow right away, but rather will wait until it needs to to make the crossing restriction.

What irks me is when they recruise after every descent including little thousand foot letdowns while on vectors for an RNAV approach. You have to have a little bit of spatial awareness here. You can see on the display where the calculated path is. It's still there! You're just below it a few hundred feet.

So ask yourself, "what was that calculated descent rate looking at?" - in most cases the first fix on the RNAV approach. So it is probably ok when ATC gives you that lower altitude to remain in VNAV, let the airplane descent at 1000 fpm, knowing you'll reintercept that path at some point prior to, or right at the fix with the next constraint.

Instead its "descend and maintain 5" ok let's recruise...

"Descend and maintain 4" ok let's recruise...

"Descend and maintain 3" ok let's recruise. Geez man!

And I KNOW where they got the idea they had to do that. In the simulator when you are doing a dozen different approaches you recruise between each one because in that PARTICULAR case, there wasn't a calculated VNAV path to begin with!

I'm not saying it's never appropriate to recruise. If you get a crossing restriction that doesn't require you to begin a descent for many more miles... sure, create a new TOD and save some gas. But understand where the path currently is, what it's calculated to do, and then decide if you NEED to recruise or if you can let the airplane fly how it was designed to.

Way too many lab monkeys who are happy to push the button to get the food pellet but who don't actually understand how the systems work.

Oh lol…

Yeah we don’t have to do that, for us the airplane always waits until the new recalculated path. It will also recapture a path that it’s above- even full scale as long as you get Vpath the airplane “can” do it. Once you exceeded that calculated max rate however it will just give you the unable.

When ATC dives you a late descent and you hit vertical direct to it transitions nicely then catches path.


To be honest, that vnav logic sounds like it can be frustrating though. Easier when you know the airplane will stay as high as it can as long as it can.


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[TWP]

My point exactly. Since the US carriers won't pay for the needed level of high quality training, then we are left with the alternative of a large quantity of experience. Even with those filters some bad apples slip through.

250hr USAF pilot = pretty good pilot
1500hr civilian pilot = pretty good pilot
200hr 141 puppy mill grad = liability in the cockpit

Agreed. I simply don’t trust the airlines to do the right thing.