Embarasssing ALPA Magazine Blunder
- Thread starter Van_Hoolio
- Start date
Hootie
Old Skool
wtf was he there for, out of curiousity?
Ive seen quite a few mil drivers at my work. My class of 16 or so, had 3 current mil drivers (only one fighter). Where else has there been to go over the past decade?
Was just wondering. A large number of my cohorts got hired to SWA, CAL, DAL, UPS and Fedex in the past 5-6 years or so.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Well, it was applied in this case by the article writer and the nominators. Unfortunately now, it makes all of us look bad. I already hate when my word is questioned. Idiots like this ensure that it happens more often.
Ya know, Jtrain609, you can rip people all you want. You and a couple of others are missing a fundamental problem here. This guy was supposed to be the poster child for all that is holy. He was supposed to be the first on many that were to make people believe in something.
Did he cook up that idea on his own? No. It came directly from the National leadership. Whose myopia was so bad that all they saw was a guy who was SO good, that they would have a home run on the first pitch.
They blew it, and instead of admitting they didn't do their job, they are dispatching their minnions to attack anyone who dares question the King's clothier. For this guy to get past the hand picked committee without serious vetting is unconscionable. Why? Because it took the program that was supposed to help rebuild the public trust and destroyed it. Why should the public, whose opinion and favor were being curried, trust them after the first person they trot out is this guy?
Because they said so? Because it's ALPA?
Your comment's to SIUav8r were out of line, inappropriate and violate the COE as well. The fact that he may not be in an ALPA cockpit means NOTHING. You owe him the respect that you so eagerly sought as a young aviator. In fact, you owe him more.
Circling the wagons does not solve the problem. Standing up and admitting the error does. Firing a writer, or having staff put out an email is gutless. Now is the time for LEADERS to stand up, admit the mistake and OWN the problem. That would go a long way. THAT will never happen.
Look around you. Delta pilots are talking about leaving. So are UAL pilots. They have a multitude of reasons, but the underlying issue is lack of LEADERSHIP.
If one is to assume your bio information is correct; you have no business lecturing people about their worth if they are ALPA members or not. You have the wings, so do many others. Many people here have decades of ALPA experience at many carriers, for managements you've only read about in history books. We have many strikes and many uniforms in our closets. Some have more hours on picket lines than you have in your logbook. We stood for your generation and people like SIUav8r so that you'd have something to step into. You have no right to lecture on those subjects.
For the benefit of you and you other friends here who have decided to try and blame others, I'll offer you this to consider.
Many years ago I made a great friend when I was a young kid pumping avgas. Bill was a United Captain. His career began in radials and ended as a 777 Check Captain. His shoelaces had more experience than most people.
I was on his jumpseat coming home on day by chance before he retired. The F/O, with his four years of experience, was intent on not only regaling me with his vast knowledge of the airplane, but all about ALPA. His knowledge of the Eastern strike filled volumes. After about 30 minutes, my friend looked at the kid and offered him a blunt suggestion. It went something like this:
"You need to quit talking, quit pushing buttons, sit on your hands, shut up and listen. Not only do you not have a clue about what you're doing with this plane, you're talking to someone who was an ALPA rep at Eastern and has forgotten more than you'll ever know."
There are a lot of people here who not only have been there and have the T shirt...they own the T shirt company.
Do yourself a favor. There are a lot of smart people out there at non ALPA carriers and affiliated with other unions...APA, IPA, SWAPA and yes, IBT. Take the time to get your facts straight.
It will serve you well in your career.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
That's still ignoring the point that it is not their job to do a full background investigation of someone they're writing a magazine article on. No matter their position. No matter their salary. There's no reason to hang anyone involved in that article other than Timbo himself. I just do not draw the connection of that this results in shaming the leadership who are making him their posterboy. Could they have looked into some of the facts in the article? Sure. Should it have been expected/required? I don't think so, but apparently folks are divided on this and the split seems to be primarily on the line between members and non-members.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Really? I'm a Delta pilot and keep my ear pretty close to the rumor mill but, that's a new one. Haven't heard a peep about that. I do know though, that misery loves company.
I've also known guys with decades upon decades of experience. Sometimes they are right and, sometimes they are wrong. I know a whole bunch of CAL scabs with many decades of experience. They may rationalize everything they did, make nice neat arguments and say profound things. Doesn't change the fact they they are wrong. They've just been wrong for twenty-seven years.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Sure, if you like.Can be like Spy vs Spy.
You're missing the point I'm making. My point is, this guy's background should've been easy enough to catch if only someone made even the most cursory check, as the number of loose ends are huge just on the military side. I'm still somewhat perplexed how he wasn't caught until now, ie- why the flags you mention weren't raised before this when this one should've been easy to flag.
And, my point is by the time a pilot gets to the level they are at all of those checks should have been done already. Why isn't American Eagle incurring the wrath of so many when they are the only ones legally required to do background checks?
This guy was obviously telling everyone about his "background". Eagle management should have caught on to it and cross-referenced his application - unless, all of these lies were on his application and Eagle failed to actually do the checks required by law.
I fully agree on the fault he has. He deliberately lied. No question there.
To me, the writers for the article got negligent in a lazy sort of way. I agree with the bolded part above in the sense that they should've done some fact checking not in a "we don't believe him, we want to background check him"; but moreso in a "Ok, he's an F-16 pilot, it'd be neat to get more info on that such as what quals does he hold, how long has he been doing it, what does he do in his unit, how long has he been with his unit.....etc, etc". Just some simple background stuff that could enhance an article and may or may not even be used. But just that little bit of editorial work would've likely uncovered the extremely thin veil he had over this whole thing. And it likely could've saved editorial embarassment for ALPA, especially in light of the subject matter of the article.....Ethics Role Model.
THAT is all I'm saying. ALPA isn't at fault for anything in a deliberate manner, they just put a heck of a lot of faith in something and got burned. That could've been fairly easily avoided, IMHO. It's just interesting to me that some members can't seem to see the forest through the trees and ever admit that their organization ever makes any mistakes.
I posted my last before I saw this; however I fully agree with you here. This is on them too. ALPA simply made an editorial mistake and got a bit lazy, IMO. AE didn't do their actual job, as you show here. Agree. I hope my angle is clarified in my last post on what I think the article writers did wrong.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Theres always someone at every airline talking about leaving their union or joining another union or whateer you want to say. Whatever viewpoint anyone takes on the subject, you will be able to find a faction that believe otherwise without exception. Except maybe that we should feed all newborn puppies to feed the dwindling siberian tiger population.
727to7400 is just trying to use this incident to show his hatred of alpa instead of actually understanding the facts on the situation (MikeD- that was the intent of my post earlier, sorry if it looked like it was directed at you).
The fact is, that the chances of someone lying to that degree on a feature article in a magazine that is read by that many people is so slim that why would they have had to have provided documentation for each position theyve held?
Like was said earlier, its more the fault of those that vouched for him for the position (his LEC and MEC as well as the DAL guy who got duped).
If someone claims those things and is vouched for... how on earth is that the ALPA writer's fault? It wasn't a research article, it was an article written honoring the guy.
I'm no unionoid, but I do have common sense and understand the process.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I agree with that. Had I been king of the world here is what I would have done: get nominations for "awesome pilot award" from individuals. Then, go out and interview other pilots that have worked/flown with the nominee. That way you could get a more well rounded story with lots of quotes from many pilots. So yeah, the story was a bit sloppy in that regard.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, they are everywhere. But, "Delta pilots are talking about leaving". That sounds like a grassroots effort is building where none exists. Just calling it out. Peace.
Fully agree, and that's the only point I'm making regarding the ALPA end.
PeanuckleCRJ said:
Very true. The chances of someone lying to that degree and being dumb enough to make themselves a public face of an article, when the cover for that lie is razor thin; is definitely a slim chance. (I still don't get why that clown did that. Or did he feel personal pressure to, or something? Who knows.)
To be fair to the guys who vouched for him, it would probably depend on how long they've known him and/or if they're military aviators and would have caught potential discrepencies, and that depending on how much he talked about or boasted about his supposed doings.
Joel covers the answer to this above beautifully.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
One of the usual angries posted a thread on APC today. That's probably where that ASSumption came from....
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Mike I think you're totally right. If they did that they most certainly would have caught it. The question is how many people aside from us current/ex-mil folks and some younger guys looking to crack into it are all that interested in those kind of details. I would guess not all that many but my guess and 9 dollars will get you a coffee at Starbucks(TM). (Editor's Note: I did not fact check the price of coffee at Starbucks(TM) prior to creating this response.)
On the bright side, we may be ridding the flying profession of a compulsive liar whose issues may preclude him from being an asset to the profession IMO.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
It wasn't Three Cups was it? No chance a military psyche board would let him any where near a fighter let alone a military flight line.
I do remember one FO who went through UPT soon after 9/11 when all of the furloughs went down. He ended up taking mil leave and saving one guy from being furloughed. If it is the same guy then he is a pretty decent dude. However, I hope his buddies rag on him for wearing gloves. It's kinda ghey.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
That he did! The ALPA rag isn't exaclty known for pulitzer prize winning articles, haha.
JoelT
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I stay far away from there. I don't think I could join the clique one million posts in. Are they going for a record? I think it might be time for APC to get a Delta only forum.
There was a dude who wore flight gloves in his airliner? Haha. I didn't even wear them in fighters, since they take away severely from dexterity, plus we only really had to have them on for start/takeoff/landing anyway, if I remember the reg correctly.
Want some good laughs.....UAV guys. Wear flightsuits not because it's just a duty uniform, but some actually push the "well if the UAV control box (looks like a mini-storage unit) catches fire, the flightsuit will protect you..." Forget the fact that the escape door is 2 feet away from you.....if you have a fire that starts and spreads that quickly that you're depending on your flightsuit to protect you; then you were dead to begin with. Personally, I think they should be in Hawaiian shirts and shorts.