Eagle vote 70% NO with 92% participation

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
What's up with that? I was surprised to see your TRI layover. I thought that was a "small" airport with RJ service. Honestly though, I'm happy to see Delta mainline taking that kind of flying back.
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I've developed "1 hour butt" as a result. The bus is so nice to preflight/takeoff/land that once we go en route for a bit i get ADD and am ready to land already. Granted, I'm freaking legit on Kindom Rush these days due to that tray table and the deeper central america I can snipe. We're upping a number of airports that were exclusive RJ to instead of last in/first out mainline service to multiple mainline coming up.. TRI is one of those.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I suppose I didn't realize ATN was saying outright that the regionals have no leverage. Well screw it, why even have a union? What a freaking stupid statement. The regionals have more leverage now than they've had in years.... there is minimal upflow due to minimal flight training and stricter entry rules, mainline is taking flying back (my first captain seat at mainline will be replacing 50 seaters with 717s), and so on and so forth.

I believe another reading of Sam Weigel's "the insanity of concessions" article would be good for you, ATN.
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Sorry, but ALPA did me no good at 9E from 2007-2012. In fact, ALPA contributed to me having lower W2s from 2008-2010. Proven fact. The best running regional, competent management that fights smartly and properly for mainline feed, with happy employees is Skywest - a non union carrier.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Sidebar.

You're a Democrat, for Christ's sake. Act like it.
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You're a critical thinker. Act like it. Don't pretend that something isn't true when the facts show it to be so.

Don't pretend that $22,000 is a living wage in most major metropolitan areas, which is where most of us regional FO guys are domiciled. Just because it happens to be above the Federal poverty line (which doesn't include transportation, information technology, communications etc.) or a State poverty line (for states that are inclined to understate economic reality) does NOT mean it's a living wage. I'd call what I make now a living wage for California, which is at least 1.5x the figures you've cited.
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Notice that I didn't say anything about the poverty line. I was talking about MIT's living wage calculation, which uses actual data for local prices of food, housing, health care, etc. to determine what the living wage is. Since you mention california, let's look at LA, which is a domicile for several airlines. The living wage in LA is $23,640. That's one of the highest I've seen in the MIT calculator, but with the possible exception of Great Mistakes, I don't think any airline pays copilots less than that. The only city I've found that might be a bit higher than what starting FOs are making is San Francisco, which comes in at $26,692. Even NYC comes in lower. But the only regional I'm aware of that domiciles pilots in SFO is Skywest, and from what pilots on this forum have said, first year pay at Skywest is usually above that mark.

Again, I'm not defending regional pay. It is absolutely awful. But it's not minimum wage, and it's not below a living wage unless you were irresponsible and had kids before you could afford them. Let's be honest about the facts so we don't lose credibility.
 
PeanuckleCRJ said:
I suppose I didn't realize ATN was saying outright that the regionals have no leverage. Well screw it, why even have a union?
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We discussed that in another thread. Many reasons to have a union even when you don't have the leverage to improve wages at the moment.

I believe another reading of Sam Weigel's "the insanity of concessions" article would be good for you, ATN.
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I read it. Pure ignorance.
 
Congrats on AE voting no. I've heard of a couple instances of j/s's being denied to RAH folk due to the current situation. I just want to point out to all the Eaglets that your more than welcome in my j/s. The likelihood of this TA passing is slim to none despite some of the recent vote modifications.

However, due to staffing adjustments/modifications we may pick up some of that 175 flying anyways, even if we vote no. Just a fair warning. Either way the pilot group here has your six.

FYI I tried to post this on the STW Facebook page, it seems Im not very popular there since it doesn't fit into the "ra ra ra pilot shortage were so understaffed rabble rabble lol" argument.

Carry on.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Sorry, but ALPA did me no good at 9E from 2007-2012. In fact, ALPA contributed to me having lower W2s from 2008-2010. Proven fact. The best running regional, competent management that fights smartly and properly for mainline feed, with happy employees is Skywest - a non union carrier.
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Not a fan of ALPA right now, but who voted in the contract?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Again, I'm not defending regional pay. It is absolutely awful. But it's not minimum wage, and it's not below a living wage unless you were irresponsible and had kids before you could afford them. Let's be honest about the facts so we don't lose credibility.
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Partially true - but most living wage arguments would base that assumption on a very low cost vocational training for the worker. $23,000/yr may be quite reasonable if the principal qualification costs less than a year's salary. If we require a four year degree plus flight training, I don't think that is "livable" by anyone's reasonable definition anymore.

I think that you can even make a pretty convincing argument that it is less than minimum wage, if you look at duty hours and compute overtime that would be required under minimum wage laws (if air carriers weren't exempt from them). Are there weeks where a first year regional FO would be paid more if they were paid minimum wage plus overtime for duty hours? Yes, almost everywhere.
 
Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy for student loan debt. If the going wage for the profession doesn't support the cost of the education, then that's a deterrent to people getting into the profession, which is a good thing, as it drives down supply and increases demand, balancing out the equation with wages that increase naturally through market forces. The living wage doesn't include student loan payments, because the assumption is that a student loan is not necessary to get by. And it isn't. It's a choice that is made. We have people on this very forum who are getting their ratings and their college degree without a single penny of debt. It takes longer, but again, that's a choice.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy for student loan debt. If the going wage for the profession doesn't support the cost of the education, then that's a deterrent to people getting into the profession, which is a good thing, as it drives down supply and increases demand, balancing out the equation with wages that increase naturally through market forces. The living wage doesn't include student loan payments, because the assumption is that a student loan is not necessary to get by. And it isn't. It's a choice that is made. We have people on this very forum who are getting their ratings and their college degree without a single penny of debt. It takes longer, but again, that's a choice.
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Well, that makes the assumption that the air carrier employment market is in a fact a free market in the US. (It is not). Market forces should be causing pilot salaries to increase. That is not happening.

For most of us, unless we have rich and generous parents, or join the military, student loan debt is a reality if attending college is in our future.
 
My regional has lost 3 FOs and 1 CA (that I l know of) in the last year to student loan debt.

Basically, they found higher paying jobs outside the industry. All these guys/girls were heavily laden down by Sallie Mae and friends.

Supply v Demand.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
We discussed that in another thread. Many reasons to have a union even when you don't have the leverage to improve wages at the moment.



I read it. Pure ignorance.
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Sounds like advocating prepaid legal rather than organized labor in the airline business.
 
Derg said:
Sounds like advocating prepaid legal rather than organized labor in the airline business.
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Yup. Honestly Todd's arguments over the past month are making many think long and hard about am what exactly ALPA is doing for is. Combine that with the fact that at least the XJT/ASA MECs and national are extremely out of touch with the wants and needs of my pilot group...
 
Boris Badenov said:
Wait, are you, a union muckity-muck, seriously arguing FOR concessions after decades of taking it up the pooper? Am I reading this right? Is Alan Funt hiding in the bushes?
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Nope, not at all. I've said repeatedly that I'd vote against those contracts. What I'm arguing against is this silly idea that the company is going to come crawling back to you after you vote no. The reality is that the vote against the contract is a vote against your carrier sticking around. Your "no" vote is a vote to tank the airline and reduce the supply of regional feed, driving up demand to balance the equation. But no one should be kidding themselves that this is all a management bluff. It's not.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Well, that makes the assumption that the air carrier employment market is in a fact a free market in the US. (It is not). Market forces should be causing pilot salaries to increase. That is not happening.
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It's not happening because supply exceeds demand. There are too many regionals for too little flying. It is definitely a free market. It's just way out of balance because the legacies loaded up on too many regional feeders during the 2000s.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
It's not happening because supply exceeds demand. There are too many regionals for too little flying. It is definitely a free market. It's just way out of balance because the legacies loaded up on too many regional feeders during the 2000s.
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I don't think that this analysis is accurate.

If there were a glut of pilots, all carriers would be furloughing pilots now. They are not. Also, one of the primary reasons that majors like using regionals is the ability to quickly add and remove capacity. Capacity is not being removed in any meaningful sense. Load factors are pretty high, actually.

The real reason regional carriers saw tremendous growth in the 10-15 years prior was simply that it lowered compensation, both at the regional and mainline level.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
If there were a glut of pilots, all carriers would be furloughing pilots now. They are not. Also, one of the primary reasons that majors like using regionals is the ability to quickly add and remove capacity.
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There's not a glut of pilots because there are still a ton of airplanes in the system. What there IS though is a glut of airplanes (mostly 50 seaters).

Also, it's much easier for a mainline carrier to add and remove capacity using their own airplanes because there is no contract on those. With a FFD setup they have guaranteed the regional X block hours per week that they've got to pay out on whether they want the flying done or not.
 
Could be a lose lose situation either way, PNCL got a decent TA (without striking), voted yes, then a year later the BK hawks started circling and now they're back where they started.

If its not one thing is another... Here at RAH we got a bunch of flying over the years 'cause we're cheaper than everyone else. Not that I like that or anything but now were so cheap we're seen as unstable. Our CEO said Mesa got that United 170 flying instead of us because we're in contract negotiations and we're a strike risk. If we vote yes to the current TA (which is doubtful) its still a pay raise so we'll be stable and better staffed, but now more expensive. Clear as mud right?

One positive though is that we fly college sports charters, casino charters, and for 3 mainline carriers. We're at least a little diversified...
 
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