wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Well there is a reason why we can deduct 80% of the difference between what the company pays us and the M&IE rate is...and every year it works about to something like a $4k deduction for me...
Eagle ALPA Corruption
- Thread starter SrFnFly227
- Start date
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I'm not even going to bother talking to Cherokee about any of this, because frankly, he's not a member and he works at a non-union carrier, so his opinion is irrelevant.
But for the others bringing up concerns about alcohol being against policy, you have to understand what happened with the policy at EGL. There is no ALPA policy related to not spending money on alcohol. Why? Because it would be an idiotic policy. You don't invite the FAA Administrator, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Vice President over to a banquet dinner and tell them "sorry, but we don't have anything for you to drink because the pilots don't like us to spend money on alcohol. How 'bout an ice water?"
But, most reps know to use moderation, and most times alcohol is purchased, it's for special events, not for everyday occurrences.
So, with no ALPA policy related to alcohol, where is this claim of a policy violation coming from? It's coming from a new policy at EGL that a group of reps got crammed through that attempts to stop EGL ALPA reps from expensing alcohol. They did it just because they don't like certain people in power, but they can't muster the votes to kick them out. So instead, they resort to this petty BS. To the best of my knowledge, no other MEC in the Association has a formal policy on alcohol. Furthermore, I'm not aware of a single other union in any industry that has a policy on this. It's just not smart to micromanage such things. Apparently some people decided that the policy was so asinine that they weren't going to follow it. Again, I can't really say that I support that decision, but I'm also not sure that I wouldn't have done the same thing under the circumstances. I know this: I would not have complied with the policy and just went about my business. I would have either ignored it and dared recall, or resigned in disgust. As an officer of the MEC, I would never put up with such micromanagement from the Status Reps. The reps have a role, and it's not to stick their nose into the minor details of what the officers are doing everyday. It's to guide the overall direction of the MEC in an effort to benefit the pilots. Stepping beyond that role is a mistake, and it's to the detriment of the members who they are supposed to be serving.
But for the others bringing up concerns about alcohol being against policy, you have to understand what happened with the policy at EGL. There is no ALPA policy related to not spending money on alcohol. Why? Because it would be an idiotic policy. You don't invite the FAA Administrator, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Vice President over to a banquet dinner and tell them "sorry, but we don't have anything for you to drink because the pilots don't like us to spend money on alcohol. How 'bout an ice water?"
But, most reps know to use moderation, and most times alcohol is purchased, it's for special events, not for everyday occurrences.So, with no ALPA policy related to alcohol, where is this claim of a policy violation coming from? It's coming from a new policy at EGL that a group of reps got crammed through that attempts to stop EGL ALPA reps from expensing alcohol. They did it just because they don't like certain people in power, but they can't muster the votes to kick them out. So instead, they resort to this petty BS. To the best of my knowledge, no other MEC in the Association has a formal policy on alcohol. Furthermore, I'm not aware of a single other union in any industry that has a policy on this. It's just not smart to micromanage such things. Apparently some people decided that the policy was so asinine that they weren't going to follow it. Again, I can't really say that I support that decision, but I'm also not sure that I wouldn't have done the same thing under the circumstances. I know this: I would not have complied with the policy and just went about my business. I would have either ignored it and dared recall, or resigned in disgust. As an officer of the MEC, I would never put up with such micromanagement from the Status Reps. The reps have a role, and it's not to stick their nose into the minor details of what the officers are doing everyday. It's to guide the overall direction of the MEC in an effort to benefit the pilots. Stepping beyond that role is a mistake, and it's to the detriment of the members who they are supposed to be serving.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
You once again have no idea what you are talking about. Your former carrier, who I used to be a status rep for, had meetings all over the place. I wouldn't go as far as say they were in air conditioned hotel meeting rooms. You also have no idea what you are talking about in regards to per diem. Your anger seems to be focused on your merger committee. I cannot speak to that since I came from one of the other carriers. I can tell you, that 12,000 dollar expense you keep bringing up was sifted through with a fine tooth comb by a person who does not see lines like you do.
amorris311
Well-Known Member
That's the fire I like to see.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Do not be so quick to paint the "rest of us" with such a broad brush.
Some of us want to be seated at the table...that's all.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I didn't paint "the rest of us" any way at all. I painted only Cherokee a certain way.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Yep, that's a nice deduction I enjoy taking advantage of as well.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
So you fly for a non-union carrier.
You're "free" from the "scandal".
Hey, have you seen "Turk 182" on Netflix?
Zimmerman Flew And Tyler Knew!
Seggy
Well-Known Member
I am going to respond a little more in depth to this witch hunt. I am calling that for a reason, but more on that later!
As a reminder I was the MEC Chair at Colgan from the time we voted ALPA onto property to January 2011, about two years so am familiar with ALPA Accounting and the practices. A few points need to be made here.
First the 'down with ALPA internet heros' really are not that pragmatic and actually end up costing ALPA more money due to their narrow view. Case in point, how they get their underwear in a wad about where meetings may be. Under Department of Labor Laws, ALPA Constitutional and By Laws (which those conducting the witch hunt LOVE talking about), and MEC Policy required us to have at least two MEC Meetings per year. When I was MEC Chair at Colgan, we ran into issues outside of our control where we had to wait till the last possible month to have our meeting for the first half of the year which was in May (company wasn't going to allow for drops in June due to staffing). Any whose, you run into a HUGE problem in May due to hotel availability. We looked to have it in Newark, Dulles Airport Area, and Houston. Hotels at the time were costing about $250.00 per night in all of these airport areas due to graduations, start of the summer travel season, etc. We priced it out and for the ten Reps and Negotiators of us it was going to be about $10,000.00 for the meeting including meals. This, of course, does NOT include the meeting room space, that hotels charge which was about another $5000.00. As we were going through the process I was bitching about the high cost of the meeting, one of the Reps who goes on a lot of cruises, got an email from a cruise line out of Fort Lauderdale for a four day, three night cruise, for $199.00 per person including meals. So with that and a hotel room in FLL the night before, we were looking at about $275.00 per rep and a total of $2750.00 for the meeting. The cruise line was even willing to throw in a meeting room for free and we could have gotten it additionally discounted (not to many people want to cruise in May I guess) if we were able to pursue it further. However, due to the way it would have been perceived by some 'internet heros', even though we could have saved ALPA $10,000, we didn't pursue it beyond a basic quote. The CJC MEC had an incredible work ethic and I knew we wouldn't be sipping adult umbrella drinks by the pool, we would be working our ass off to represent our pilots well.
Another example is you can routinely get hotel rooms in Las Vegas during the week for a lot cheaper than a destination such as Newark. Try explaining that to one with a narrow view or one who thinks 'ALPA Parties' yet doesn't work in the airlines (ComplexHiAv8r) is impossible. Bottom line, I and others could save ALPA A TON of money if one looks outside the box.
The rep at Eagle saying 'The MEC Chair broke a MEC Resolution or the MEC Policy Manual or the ALPA Constitutional and By-Laws' is doing nothing, but, spewing hot air. Here is how it works, basically ALPA, like all labor unions thanks to 'W' has the Labor Department up their ass about their accounting practices. I mean, it is ridiculous. How do I know? I have had to fill out the forms. Anyway, let me break it down. The MEC Chair at Eagle broke no laws which reigns supreme over the ALPA Constitutional and By-Laws. The ALPA Constitutional and By-Laws was not violated so let us take a look at the MEC Policy Manual. You can look at your MEC Policy Manual as a guide on how to do business. Quite frankly, it is not written in stone, and there is a WIDE allowance for interpretation and enforcement by the MECs. For example, in the Colgan MEC Policy Manual, for the extra work ALPA Full Time bys did they were allowed the greater of the two, 85 hours of pay credit per month OR the average of the top three line holders. I was an ALPA Full Time by and was eligible for the average of the top three line holders. As during the summer they were crediting 150+ hours, I did not think it was right due to our financial situation to ask the MEC to pay that amount to me. So I took the 85 hours instead costing myself thousands of dollars per month, tens of thousands per year.
Another example I dealt with regularly is when I had a volunteer that needed to meet for a few days with the company over a LOA or MOU. We could drop a trip and pay the pilot for that drop, full or partial, to get them to the meeting as a Representative of ALPA. In our policy manual it said it had to be for that month. If the company asked for the meeting on February 5th to 8th but the ALPA Rep was off those days, I would ask them what they wanted to do in terms of their drop, the trip before, after, or another time in the month. A few times, I was carrying days over from month to month, and even buying trips off from him that didn't match exactly. For example, if a rep had three days off, they went to the meeting where they were working from 7AM to midnight, but I dropped a four day trip that worked for them better due to family obligations a month later. Keep in mind, the work done during the ALPA Meetings was FAAAAAR more hours than the four day, but the days don't line up exactly, technically a violation of our policy manual. No one said anything about it as I was anal to make sure I communicated well to everyone what the meeting was about, what was done, and all the reps understood that the work being done would ultimately help the pilot group out. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, REPRESENTING THE PILOTS. There is no magic eight ball the best way to do it, but I do know that you need to treat the reps well, not get caught up in the small stuff, and trust the reps to do their jobs. If it passes the crew room sniff test, yes I was asked ALL the time how these expenses work, then sometimes you need to use the MEC Policy Manual as a guide and say screw it.
Brings me back to this point on why this is a witch hunt. The Eagle MEC Leadership were given a poo sand which in their Chapter 11. The MEC Officers did a great job of representing the pilots during the Chapter 11 process and quite frankly, the Eagle pilots made out VERY well given the laws (put in by Republicans) and the situation. So these Reps 'auditing' expenses need to focus more on representing their pilots, not worrying about expenses during the Chapter 11 process. Who is not to say that at these meetings at 'Azul' the companies lawyers were not present and bottom line talks were discussed away from the court room? Has happened in the past and will happen in the future.
As a reminder I was the MEC Chair at Colgan from the time we voted ALPA onto property to January 2011, about two years so am familiar with ALPA Accounting and the practices. A few points need to be made here.
First the 'down with ALPA internet heros' really are not that pragmatic and actually end up costing ALPA more money due to their narrow view. Case in point, how they get their underwear in a wad about where meetings may be. Under Department of Labor Laws, ALPA Constitutional and By Laws (which those conducting the witch hunt LOVE talking about), and MEC Policy required us to have at least two MEC Meetings per year. When I was MEC Chair at Colgan, we ran into issues outside of our control where we had to wait till the last possible month to have our meeting for the first half of the year which was in May (company wasn't going to allow for drops in June due to staffing). Any whose, you run into a HUGE problem in May due to hotel availability. We looked to have it in Newark, Dulles Airport Area, and Houston. Hotels at the time were costing about $250.00 per night in all of these airport areas due to graduations, start of the summer travel season, etc. We priced it out and for the ten Reps and Negotiators of us it was going to be about $10,000.00 for the meeting including meals. This, of course, does NOT include the meeting room space, that hotels charge which was about another $5000.00. As we were going through the process I was bitching about the high cost of the meeting, one of the Reps who goes on a lot of cruises, got an email from a cruise line out of Fort Lauderdale for a four day, three night cruise, for $199.00 per person including meals. So with that and a hotel room in FLL the night before, we were looking at about $275.00 per rep and a total of $2750.00 for the meeting. The cruise line was even willing to throw in a meeting room for free and we could have gotten it additionally discounted (not to many people want to cruise in May I guess) if we were able to pursue it further. However, due to the way it would have been perceived by some 'internet heros', even though we could have saved ALPA $10,000, we didn't pursue it beyond a basic quote. The CJC MEC had an incredible work ethic and I knew we wouldn't be sipping adult umbrella drinks by the pool, we would be working our ass off to represent our pilots well.
Another example is you can routinely get hotel rooms in Las Vegas during the week for a lot cheaper than a destination such as Newark. Try explaining that to one with a narrow view or one who thinks 'ALPA Parties' yet doesn't work in the airlines (ComplexHiAv8r) is impossible. Bottom line, I and others could save ALPA A TON of money if one looks outside the box.
The rep at Eagle saying 'The MEC Chair broke a MEC Resolution or the MEC Policy Manual or the ALPA Constitutional and By-Laws' is doing nothing, but, spewing hot air. Here is how it works, basically ALPA, like all labor unions thanks to 'W' has the Labor Department up their ass about their accounting practices. I mean, it is ridiculous. How do I know? I have had to fill out the forms. Anyway, let me break it down. The MEC Chair at Eagle broke no laws which reigns supreme over the ALPA Constitutional and By-Laws. The ALPA Constitutional and By-Laws was not violated so let us take a look at the MEC Policy Manual. You can look at your MEC Policy Manual as a guide on how to do business. Quite frankly, it is not written in stone, and there is a WIDE allowance for interpretation and enforcement by the MECs. For example, in the Colgan MEC Policy Manual, for the extra work ALPA Full Time bys did they were allowed the greater of the two, 85 hours of pay credit per month OR the average of the top three line holders. I was an ALPA Full Time by and was eligible for the average of the top three line holders. As during the summer they were crediting 150+ hours, I did not think it was right due to our financial situation to ask the MEC to pay that amount to me. So I took the 85 hours instead costing myself thousands of dollars per month, tens of thousands per year.
Another example I dealt with regularly is when I had a volunteer that needed to meet for a few days with the company over a LOA or MOU. We could drop a trip and pay the pilot for that drop, full or partial, to get them to the meeting as a Representative of ALPA. In our policy manual it said it had to be for that month. If the company asked for the meeting on February 5th to 8th but the ALPA Rep was off those days, I would ask them what they wanted to do in terms of their drop, the trip before, after, or another time in the month. A few times, I was carrying days over from month to month, and even buying trips off from him that didn't match exactly. For example, if a rep had three days off, they went to the meeting where they were working from 7AM to midnight, but I dropped a four day trip that worked for them better due to family obligations a month later. Keep in mind, the work done during the ALPA Meetings was FAAAAAR more hours than the four day, but the days don't line up exactly, technically a violation of our policy manual. No one said anything about it as I was anal to make sure I communicated well to everyone what the meeting was about, what was done, and all the reps understood that the work being done would ultimately help the pilot group out. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, REPRESENTING THE PILOTS. There is no magic eight ball the best way to do it, but I do know that you need to treat the reps well, not get caught up in the small stuff, and trust the reps to do their jobs. If it passes the crew room sniff test, yes I was asked ALL the time how these expenses work, then sometimes you need to use the MEC Policy Manual as a guide and say screw it.
Brings me back to this point on why this is a witch hunt. The Eagle MEC Leadership were given a poo sand which in their Chapter 11. The MEC Officers did a great job of representing the pilots during the Chapter 11 process and quite frankly, the Eagle pilots made out VERY well given the laws (put in by Republicans) and the situation. So these Reps 'auditing' expenses need to focus more on representing their pilots, not worrying about expenses during the Chapter 11 process. Who is not to say that at these meetings at 'Azul' the companies lawyers were not present and bottom line talks were discussed away from the court room? Has happened in the past and will happen in the future.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Seggy is right. Sadly, we waste quite a bit of money because we need to avoid the "appearance" of having fun on union time, even if it saves money. The cheapest offers we've had for hosting the Board of Directors meetings have been from hotels at Disneyland, Las Vegas, and Hollywood Beach (Fort Lauderdale). In an effort to save money, several meetings have been held over the years in Vegas and Lauderdale. But then the maniacal rants from the internet tough guys start streaming in, and the neanderthals at the DPA start using it as propaganda, so what do we do? We move the meetings to Washington, DC for the next few times, and we end up having to spend more money for "appearances."
Feel proud of yourselves internet tough guys! Because of you, you and your fellow pilots spend more. If you're not an internet tough guy, and you're just an average line pilot who trusts his union to do their job, then be sure to thank the next tough guy blowhard you see in the crew lounge for costing you more dues money.
Feel proud of yourselves internet tough guys! Because of you, you and your fellow pilots spend more. If you're not an internet tough guy, and you're just an average line pilot who trusts his union to do their job, then be sure to thank the next tough guy blowhard you see in the crew lounge for costing you more dues money.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Thanks Seggy for slamming me. See you paying it forward. I seem to remember the threads of a bigger party in FL then the NJC last year. Yes I'm not in 121 now but you do know I am from a flying family and such, and walking a strike line with my father most likely before you were born.
How about you stop slamming those and while you might of actually said something of importance I stopping at your slam to me.
It's not like I jumped ship after spending over $20k at a company in training. I see where your ethics are.
How about you stop slamming those and while you might of actually said something of importance I stopping at your slam to me.
It's not like I jumped ship after spending over $20k at a company in training. I see where your ethics are.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
Seggy said:
What about those in ALPA talking how big the party was going to be in FL last year the same time as NJC? Those ARE ALPA union people.
I also see you updated your response before I could respond. 8)
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
I don't get how that matters an iota if the work got done and it cost the same or less? As to the Colgan MEC meeting, I would have still went with the cruise and saving the money. When the internet tough guys actually DO make an impact I may start to care. Keyboard ninjas are as powerful as a kitten when it comes to real life. Haters gonna hate. I generally prefer to ingore the stupid, try to help the clueless within reason, and I don't lie to folks. Guess I'll never be a politician. I can live with that.
Why is this thread still going on? Someone tell the Eagle ALPA malcontents to do things to themselves and quite wasting everyone's time that could be spent on real or important issues.
ComplexHiAv8r
Well-Known Member
I think it goes to the thought of the costs. I'm a work hard / play hard type of guy. I have been in close meetings like this and would NOT charge alcohol back to a client even if I knew it would be approved (besides a wine with dinner). . Someone once said more was done at these after parties then at the actual meetings. I believe even union people asked in that thread why that was and why waste the money on the meeting room if that was the case. That and why you had to push the booze to get things accomplished.
As for the cruise I understand the way it would of looked but I would be one to say take it, and since know far enough in advance, tell your members why doing it. Don't hide it, so the savings, and report back daily to your members on progress.
At a previous employer I had the nickname of "cruise director" but everyone wanted to travel with me, and management always wanted me to handle projects because we usually got them done on time (or before) and usually on budget.
I would gladly join and help if/when I am ever in a position. I hear TEAMSTERS are hiring.
Oh, I should say I would prefer this discussion was somewhere nice with a few drinks. I'd buy first round.
As for the cruise I understand the way it would of looked but I would be one to say take it, and since know far enough in advance, tell your members why doing it. Don't hide it, so the savings, and report back daily to your members on progress.
At a previous employer I had the nickname of "cruise director" but everyone wanted to travel with me, and management always wanted me to handle projects because we usually got them done on time (or before) and usually on budget.
I would gladly join and help if/when I am ever in a position. I hear TEAMSTERS are hiring.
Oh, I should say I would prefer this discussion was somewhere nice with a few drinks. I'd buy first round.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
Years ago union contracts used to stipulate that a certain number of alcohol was allowed to be consumed during lunch, by employees who would be, by today's standards, considered safety-sensitive employees by the transportation department. Laws and by-laws are great and all, but standards change and desires change. There will always be people who don't agree with what you're doing and they might resort to questioning your following of policies and procedures or even the policies and procedures themselves. We had our Local taken over by National because of fraud. At the time, there was a vocal perceived minority dissenting. They were threatened with letters to the company to invoke a termination process (yes, really). Not a whole lot became of it. Then, suddenly, the Local was taken over by IBT and the MEC Chairman's (I think MEC was what it was called back then) first reaction was to question what was happening. There was a message that was intended to rally the troops and fight back, but it was found that money was embezzled and that the lawyer and assistant were removed. It's pretty common for other officials to try to protect those close to them at first, even when the relationship wasn't that great, if an outside force comes in and threatens status quo and status quo worked fine for them. It's unfortunate, but most people will take comfort over rocking the boat.
WacoFan
Bigly
Kind of a boring thread and not enough vitriol and hate to make it supremely interesting.
Here are some facts of life though. Union people will absolutely abuse expense accounts at times. Non-union executives will abuse them at times. Mid-level managers will abuse them at times. If you want to do away with expense account abuse the only way to accomplish that is to completely do away with expense accounts. Also, the fun part is that you don't really know you have a problem until the receipts are turned in and the money's been spent (for the most part). Another great truth about expense accounts is that there will also be very large expenditures that people will see at times and in retrospect they will think it's wasteful without knowing the full backstory. What's the take-away? There is really nothing you can do. As a matter of personal practice II would tell you to always be impeccably honest with your expense reports and provide lots of detail. This is a CYA move. Alternatively, if you are the one that provides approval for expenses because you own the company (Me) then you can pretty much go nuts.
Bookkeeper: "What's the Spearmint Rino?"
Me: "Place in Vegas - they had...umm...spicy tea and such with a wild animal motif."
Bookkeeper: "Wow...expensive teas, it cost $2,000"
Me: "Very exotic and exclusive...my personal hostess was from the Czech Republic"*****
****Disclaimer: Do not try this at home. Again, I owned the company and approved the expenses. You will get whacked if you try this.
Here are some facts of life though. Union people will absolutely abuse expense accounts at times. Non-union executives will abuse them at times. Mid-level managers will abuse them at times. If you want to do away with expense account abuse the only way to accomplish that is to completely do away with expense accounts. Also, the fun part is that you don't really know you have a problem until the receipts are turned in and the money's been spent (for the most part). Another great truth about expense accounts is that there will also be very large expenditures that people will see at times and in retrospect they will think it's wasteful without knowing the full backstory. What's the take-away? There is really nothing you can do. As a matter of personal practice II would tell you to always be impeccably honest with your expense reports and provide lots of detail. This is a CYA move. Alternatively, if you are the one that provides approval for expenses because you own the company (Me) then you can pretty much go nuts.
Bookkeeper: "What's the Spearmint Rino?"
Me: "Place in Vegas - they had...umm...spicy tea and such with a wild animal motif."
Bookkeeper: "Wow...expensive teas, it cost $2,000"
Me: "Very exotic and exclusive...my personal hostess was from the Czech Republic"*****
****Disclaimer: Do not try this at home. Again, I owned the company and approved the expenses. You will get whacked if you try this.
bLizZuE
Calling for engine starts en français
I started doing work for ALPA 6 months off probation. I have been heckled as a new-hire, babe-on-teet, and ignoramus from the start.
Fact is this: I do the work that nobody else wanted to do. Whenever I solicit for volunteers they cry "what do I pay my dues for?" - to which I just shake my head.
I volunteered to facilitate change that I felt was necessary and potentially beneficial to the pilot group. I've since come to learn that we (and every pilot group) have a very vocal anti-ALPA minority. I can not in good conscious make decisions based on the demands of those few in direct conflict with the needs (and wants) of the many.
The expenses debacle is a pathetic political mud sling effort. The only people being harmed by this is the pilot group and our future.
If you want to know more, you'll have to call me.
Fact is this: I do the work that nobody else wanted to do. Whenever I solicit for volunteers they cry "what do I pay my dues for?" - to which I just shake my head.
I volunteered to facilitate change that I felt was necessary and potentially beneficial to the pilot group. I've since come to learn that we (and every pilot group) have a very vocal anti-ALPA minority. I can not in good conscious make decisions based on the demands of those few in direct conflict with the needs (and wants) of the many.
The expenses debacle is a pathetic political mud sling effort. The only people being harmed by this is the pilot group and our future.
If you want to know more, you'll have to call me.
I do not envy you.
When I was on COMM at Skyway, people would walk up to me at the grocery store and bitch me out about the slow progress of our first contract and who was going to pay their bills if we went on strike.
Enjoying a nice slice of pizza before your Madison turn? Better be ready at the drop of a hat to get your ear chewed off.
And I was just COMM, I just reported, made VARS messages and did my best to muckrake with the help of the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel business editor.