Dropping this student....

[CK]

That would make the purchase of his Pacer a waste as well. All I am really saying is that I don't think most people realize how brutal the FAA is and how unforgiving they are.

I think most people would be surprised at the large number of pilots who fly with never having earned a certificate. Once the FAA takes away the certificate there is very little they (the FAA) can do and law enforment agencies are not eager to step in until after a true problem (accident, flying drunk through class B, ect) has occured. I'm not condoning it at all, but it's a sad reality.

Alex.

 

[Roger, Roger]

Drop him like a trig class, see?

Consider voiding the endorsements you gave him, especially if they do not have specific limitations on them (e.g, "student must consult with me before any solo flight").

 

[ftyflyboy]

Void endorsements, Call FSDO, purchase a life insurance policy on the guy with you as the sole beneficiary.

 

[Alinator]

I would say VOID the endorsements and have a nice long talk with him about the consequences of his actions i.e. never being able to fly again.

As far as going to the FSDO and ratting him out, no way Jose. If AFTER you talk to him he decides to do it again, then alright fair game to hang him.

The guy is new in the game and being stupid without really considering the repercussions of his actions IMO. We have ALL broken a FAR at one point or another in our careers (except for me, of course ) whether unintentionally or as in this guy's case of stupidity, intentionally.

The key is to learn from mistakes and to not repeat them. If you haven't accidentally broken a FAR, filled out a NASA/ASAP, etc. then you most likely haven't been flying for long enough.

Give the guy a break this time while protecting yourself (VOID endorsement), and explain the ultimatum of Mr. FSDO "finding out" if it happens again. He will not repeat, me thinks.

 

[Baronpilot244]

Get him off your ticket.

BP244
CFI/CFII/MEI

 

[dc3flyer]

Also I kind of find it funny how a forum of people so gun-ho about "protecting out brotherhood" can be so willing to rat out a fellow aviator because of some vague fear of liability.

I don't think the student is paying his union dues yet! :insane:

 

[bdhill1979]

Also I kind of find it funny how a forum of people so gun-ho about "protecting out brotherhood" can be so willing to rat out a fellow aviator because of some vague fear of liability. Hint: An instructor can now and will not be held liable for something the student doing something against the wishes of the instructor. Is anyone out can post a counter example, I'd love to see it.

1. Holding a student pilot certificate does not qualify him as an "aviator", or even a pilot for that matter.
2. I see a GIANT distinction from "Ratting out" a minor infraction like instructing for 8.1 in a day versus flying an airplane in which the student has no privileges and has already been warned of the illegality of that.

It is not that this guy broke the rules more than once, it is that he has demonstrated an anti-authority attitude that will come back to haunt the instructor, regardless of whether the FAA can enforce any action against the CFI.

The only time I ever got called into the FSDO was from a student that had and off field landing and blamed me up and down. When I showed up and showed them my records, and gave my side of the story I was off the hook in 10 seconds. I still would rather not have had to show up at all.

 

[nbv4]

1. Holding a student pilot certificate does not qualify him as an "aviator", or even a pilot for that matter.
2. I see a GIANT distinction from "Ratting out" a minor infraction like instructing for 8.1 in a day versus flying an airplane in which the student has no privileges and has already been warned of the illegality of that.

It is not that this guy broke the rules more than once, it is that he has demonstrated an anti-authority attitude that will come back to haunt the instructor, regardless of whether the FAA can enforce any action against the CFI.

The only time I ever got called into the FSDO was from a student that had and off field landing and blamed me up and down. When I showed up and showed them my records, and gave my side of the story I was off the hook in 10 seconds. I still would rather not have had to show up at all.

"Ratting someone out" to me means taking it upon yourself to squeal to the authorities for no other reason but because you can.

This is the way I see it: A flight instructor's job is to give training. His job is not to act as the FAA junior deputy infraction whistle blower. As long as the CFI covers all the bases and does all he can do to warn the student of the consequences, then he has sufficiently covered his buttocks. Physically taking the student's certificates away from him is purely a dick move. If anything, it acknowledges that the CFI was careless in signing him off in the first place.

It really annoys me when people take it upon themselves to enforce something that they have no business enforcing. There was a thread here a few months ago where many people were saying how if they ever found themselves in an interviewer position, they would never ever hire an ex-con because "they deserve to not get hired because they messed up and it's my job to make sure they realize that actions have consequences". So instead of being just a job interviewer, they are job interviewers, as well as judge and jury. That kind of crap bothers me.

Look, if a student acts illegally, the instructor can't in any way be held liable. At least in the eyes of the FAA. And if it's the civil courts you're worried about, scratching your name off the student's certificate isn't going to change anything.

If someone can supply evidence of the FAA going after an instructor because the student

 

[Alinator]

:yeahthat:

 

[bdhill1979]

I agree that if I do my job right, the FAA has nothing to punish me with, I already said that

However lets look at this from a different perspective; forget the FAA

I freelance instruct a lot. My reputation as a good instructor is extremely valuable.

If I had this student, and I knowingly let slide all of his blatant disregard for the regulations, and somewhere down the line he bends metal; can you really say that won't negatively affect my reputation?

Would an incident/accident from this same pilot not negatively affect the public image of General Aviation as a whole?

Should he ever become an instructor would he not pass those same anti-authority attitudes onto his students?

Can you say let him slide knowing that his attitudes could very well kill him, his passengers, and any unlucky persons on the ground?

I can't

 

[jynxyjoe]

The one time I had to drop a student I did it very simply and plainly. "Look, ______, it's your money, it's about to be my money, and I fly just fine. Either find another instructor, or listen to what I'm saying." Never saw him again.

Stole that line from a tv show, but for the life of me I can't remember anymore (west wing maybe).

 

[mshunter]

"Ratting someone out" to me means taking it upon yourself to squeal to the authorities for no other reason but because you can.

If someone can supply evidence of the FAA going after an instructor because the student

IIRC, I remember an article John Yodice wrote a while back about just such an incident. I am looking for it right now. It was a student who did something without an endorsement, the CP and his instrucotr talked to him about it, and the FAA got wind of it, decided to persue the matter and violated both instructors and the student pilot. They(FAA) alleged that the two instructors "conspired" to with hold information from the FAA.

Ignorance is not bliss my friend. Telling a cop "I thought the speed limit was 75" will still net you a ticket. Yes, it is a matter of doing something about it. How many times shall we turn a blind eye? Or is what everyone is preaching about changing reg "written in blood" on a pharse of a comment, meant to "threaten" that change is only necessary when the poo hits the fan, and only then? I guess we should all wait untill this guy spills the blood of himself and others. I would rather regret haveing done something, than haveing done nothing at all.

 

[Brian Z]

"Ratting someone out" to me means taking it upon yourself to squeal to the authorities for no other reason but because you can.

This is the way I see it: A flight instructor's job is to give training. His job is not to act as the FAA junior deputy infraction whistle blower. As long as the CFI covers all the bases and does all he can do to warn the student of the consequences, then he has sufficiently covered his buttocks. Physically taking the student's certificates away from him is purely a dick move. If anything, it acknowledges that the CFI was careless in signing him off in the first place.

It really annoys me when people take it upon themselves to enforce something that they have no business enforcing. There was a thread here a few months ago where many people were saying how if they ever found themselves in an interviewer position, they would never ever hire an ex-con because "they deserve to not get hired because they messed up and it's my job to make sure they realize that actions have consequences". So instead of being just a job interviewer, they are job interviewers, as well as judge and jury. That kind of crap bothers me.

Look, if a student acts illegally, the instructor can't in any way be held liable. At least in the eyes of the FAA. And if it's the civil courts you're worried about, scratching your name off the student's certificate isn't going to change anything.

If someone can supply evidence of the FAA going after an instructor because the student

I see and understand your point. Is it not also the instructors job to promote aviation in a positive safe light? Would ignoring a student repeating reckless acts promote safety? I do not see it as ratting someone out. But rather kepping an unsafe pilot out of the skys we all fly in. BTW, his student cert. is not being taken away. It is just the endorsment to solo.

You are may be right that voiding the endorsements may not change anything. What it does do is show the instructor did do something. What would look better in court;

Lawyer- "What did you do after you discovered this guy was flying without the proper certifications?"

Instructor- "I spoke with him and discussed the reasoning blah, blah, blah...During this conversation I came to believe that he would continue doing the same. Once I realized that I did what I could do to prevent that and voided his solo endorsements."

That covers you better than this;

Lawyer- "What did you do after you discovered this guy was flying without the proper certifications?"

Instructor- "Nothing"

 

[Zero1Niner]

"Ratting someone out" to me means taking it upon yourself to squeal to the authorities for no other reason but because you can.

This is the way I see it: A flight instructor's job is to give training. His job is not to act as the FAA junior deputy infraction whistle blower. As long as the CFI covers all the bases and does all he can do to warn the student of the consequences, then he has sufficiently covered his buttocks. Physically taking the student's certificates away from him is purely a dick move. If anything, it acknowledges that the CFI was careless in signing him off in the first place.

It really annoys me when people take it upon themselves to enforce something that they have no business enforcing. There was a thread here a few months ago where many people were saying how if they ever found themselves in an interviewer position, they would never ever hire an ex-con because "they deserve to not get hired because they messed up and it's my job to make sure they realize that actions have consequences". So instead of being just a job interviewer, they are job interviewers, as well as judge and jury. That kind of crap bothers me.

Look, if a student acts illegally, the instructor can't in any way be held liable. At least in the eyes of the FAA. And if it's the civil courts you're worried about, scratching your name off the student's certificate isn't going to change anything.

If someone can supply evidence of the FAA going after an instructor because the student

Really disagree with this one. I think we as instructors have a responsibility to not only protect general aviation as a whole from idiots like this that ruin it for everyone because they refuse to play by the rules, but also to also protect him from his own stupidity which will eventually get him killed. The end result of doing nothing and allowing this cowboy to continue is more strict rules and regs, a more disapproving public, and higher insurance costs.

We as the instructors are more deeply familiar with the safety and proficiency of these students, perhaps even more than the DPE, so knowingly allowing a bozo to get away with this does us ALL a great disservice in the long run.

 

[Maurus]

"Ratting someone out" to me means taking it upon yourself to squeal to the authorities for no other reason but because you can.

This is the way I see it: A flight instructor's job is to give training. His job is not to act as the FAA junior deputy infraction whistle blower. As long as the CFI covers all the bases and does all he can do to warn the student of the consequences, then he has sufficiently covered his buttocks. Physically taking the student's certificates away from him is purely a dick move. If anything, it acknowledges that the CFI was careless in signing him off in the first place.

It really annoys me when people take it upon themselves to enforce something that they have no business enforcing. There was a thread here a few months ago where many people were saying how if they ever found themselves in an interviewer position, they would never ever hire an ex-con because "they deserve to not get hired because they messed up and it's my job to make sure they realize that actions have consequences". So instead of being just a job interviewer, they are job interviewers, as well as judge and jury. That kind of crap bothers me.

Look, if a student acts illegally, the instructor can't in any way be held liable. At least in the eyes of the FAA. And if it's the civil courts you're worried about, scratching your name off the student's certificate isn't going to change anything.

If someone can supply evidence of the FAA going after an instructor because the student

Rat the guy out before he kills himself. The last thing you need are lawyers from his family breathing down your back after he kills himself.
You shift the responsibility to the FAA and you would have a better chance to keep them off your back.

Also void the endorsements with a date and signature along with copying them for your records. The voided endorsements would work in a civil court as evidence of revoking privileges and also informing the student of what he has done before he kills himself. He kills himself after that date, and you have an upper hand in the courts.

 

[BajtheJino]

you can’t even taxi that plane around unless you have been signed of in it as well.

How do mechanics taxi airplanes?

 

[Clocks]

The one time I had to drop a student I did it very simply and plainly. "Look, ______, it's your money, it's about to be my money, and I fly just fine. Either find another instructor, or listen to what I'm saying." Never saw him again.

Stole that line from a tv show, but for the life of me I can't remember anymore (west wing maybe).

Yep that was from the west wing.

 

[raydux]

Drop him, void any endorsements you made in his logbook, report to feds!! Just think of all the time and work it took to get your cfi ticket,Now think that he has the power to help you get rid off it at the minimum. don't let the feds know that you've seen him do it more than once or they may still hold you liable.... Never know what those folks logical thinking will lead them to think as appropriate! And if he comes back ....... RUN!!!!!

 

[beechpilot84]

Haven't been able to get a hold of him yet but I will shortly. I will void the most recent endorsement. I'm not going to call the FSDO but I will let him know that I will if I catch him again, not to rat him him out, but as stated before, just to say what the guy is doing and that I told him that he is breaking the regs and see what they say. We do have an obligation to protect the general public and fellow pilots.

I get what people or trying to say about the taxi thing (no endorsement needed) but I'm not sold on it. That's like saying if some stranger comes in the door I can hand them the keys and let them go taxi around. Who is to blame if they cross an active runway, or crash into another airplane?

 

[Alinator]

Haven't been able to get a hold of him yet but I will shortly. I will void the most recent endorsement. I'm not going to call the FSDO but I will let him know that I will if I catch him again, not to rat him him out, but as stated before, just to say what the guy is doing and that I told him that he is breaking the regs and see what they say. We do have an obligation to protect the general public and fellow pilots.

I get what people or trying to say about the taxi thing (no endorsement needed) but I'm not sold on it. That's like saying if some stranger comes in the door I can hand them the keys and let them go taxi around. Who is to blame if they cross an active runway, or crash into another airplane?

:clap:I always hate to see people get in trouble with the FSDO, even if they did do some stupid sh**. I really don't think he's going to repeat it once he understands he'll probably never be able to get licensed and essentially will lose most of his investment on the airplane if caught again.