Dropping this student....

[beechpilot84]

I have a student that is close to finishing the private pilot. He flies alright but lacks a little consistency on doing the maneuvers right the first time. He also needs more work on the ground stuff and doesn’t study much. We’ve been training in a 172 and a few months ago he bought a Piper Pacer. He flies with a tail wheel instructor in the Pacer and with me in the 172. He has been only singed off for solo in the 172.

At various times I had seen him taxiing the Pacer around and I asked if he had been signed off in it. The answer was no so I gave him a good talking to about how you can’t even taxi that plane around unless you have been signed of in it as well. (should be a no brainier) I explained all the solo rules and I figured that would solve the problem.

He has shown some questionable judgment at times but nothing I thought was dangerous. A few days ago his tail wheel instructor called me and asked if I had signed him off in the Pacer. I said no and he proceeded to tell me that the student had been out flying it into grass strips and such at least twice without a solo endorsement.

A few days after that I went into work for a lesson and he was getting fueled up at our ramp, operating the plane solo again. I’m thinking ok so he is going to taxi back and park it……I watch him taxi down, do a run-up and takeoff.

I already talked to the manager and told her I was going to dump him as a student. I don’t need the liability and even though it wasn’t in our airplane, who know what he would do in our airplanes after doing something so stupid in his own.

Anyways I just wanted some opinions or thoughts…..

P.S. I haven't flown or talked to him yet about it since it all happened just this week

 

[rpfeif]

This guy seems to lack a little sense, why not just get endorsed in the Tri-Pacer and be on his way.

Dump him for sure, but I would still try and get a hold of him and talk to him about the situation. It seems that you'd get more done by talking to a wall instead.

 

[moxiepilot]

You've already explained the rules to him. I would flat out state that since he cannot abide by them you are dropping him, no questions.

If he tries to justify or state that he will change, tell him too late, you are the weakest link, goodbye.

 

[shdw]

Ask to see his logbook and VOID the sign offs you have given. If he can't respect your wishes and/or operate within the bounds of FAA law then make sure you rid yourself completely by voiding those sign offs.

 

[esa17]

If the student knows he shouldn't be doing it and still does, then let him be FSDO meat and wash your hands of him.

 

[Douglas]

I second voiding his solo endorsements ( at a minimum).

I would make it clear, that the FSDO will be notified if he breaks regs again.

Keep him or drop him it is your call. i would say you have very good grounds to drop him.
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On a side note, I don't see him taxiing the aircraft with zero intention of flying against the regs.

When he takes off...then his is breaking regs.

 

[shdw]

On a side note, I don't see him taxiing the aircraft with zero intention of flying against the regs.

Taxiing isn't breaking any regulations, we had this discussion on another topic I don't remember where. How else are mechanics and line grew taxiing?

Now your schools insurance might be a different story, but if it is his airplane...

 

[JustinA]

Dude. Void ASAP.

 

[bdhill1979]

I would void and call the FSDO at this point with the tail number of the Tri-Pacer, he already got his warning.

 

[mshunter]

I second voiding his solo endorsements ( at a minimum).

I would make it clear, that the FSDO will be notified if he breaks regs again.

Keep him or drop him it is your call. i would say you have very good grounds to drop him.
--------

On a side note, I don't see him taxiing the aircraft with zero intention of flying against the regs.

When he takes off...then his is breaking regs.

I would void and call the FSDO at this point with the tail number of the Tri-Pacer, he already got his warning.

How many times will it take to call the FSDO. One, two, ten? Call the FSDO immediatly, as in as soon as normal buisness hours resume. Do you realy want the FAA knocking on your door because you are the last one to sign his logbook? You are only protecting YOURSELF. You have to look out for number one, and thats you.

 

[at1024]

How many times will it take to call the FSDO. One, two, ten? Call the FSDO immediatly, as in as soon as normal buisness hours resume. Do you realy want the FAA knocking on your door because you are the last one to sign his logbook? You are only protecting YOURSELF. You have to look out for number one, and thats you.

I agree. Protect yourself on this one, because these kinds of rules don't bend very much.

 

[Brian Z]

Protect yourself and everyone else flying in the Pac NW. Void the endorsements and call the FSDO. If something happens it is your name in the logbook.

 

[dc3flyer]

I had a student once that owned his own plane. He was a good pilot, and a good student, but he had not even met the requirements for the PPL yet.

One day, I come into work and notice his airplane is missing from the ramp. I assume he is out doing some solo work, so I am not that concerned. Later in the day it is still missing. So I talk to the fueler and asked him if he had seen him, or knew where he was. He proceeded to tell me he and his wife and his son had gone out of town for the weekend (to a destination a couple of hundred miles away via airplane which I had not signed him off for the XC). He told me he had fueled the airplane before they left that morning.

First thing I did, was call the FSDO. I didn't rat him out, or tell them his name or his tail number. I simply asked what my liablilty was as the instructor who had signed him off for solo. They pretty much told me, that I was safe, but mostly because I had made the phone call. The next thing I did, was call the student and told him I had just called the FSDO. I asked him when he planned on coming back, and I told him I would meet him at the airport. I was able to work out a XC with another student there, and signed this other student off for a solo XC home, which we pretty much flew in formation. Oh, and did I mention this other student loved it, cause I made the guy that screwed up pay for me and the school's plane?????

 

[Brian Z]

I had a student once that owned his own plane. He was a good pilot, and a good student, but he had not even met the requirements for the PPL yet.

One day, I come into work and notice his airplane is missing from the ramp. I assume he is out doing some solo work, so I am not that concerned. Later in the day it is still missing. So I talk to the fueler and asked him if he had seen him, or knew where he was. He proceeded to tell me he and his wife and his son had gone out of town for the weekend (to a destination a couple of hundred miles away via airplane which I had not signed him off for the XC). He told me he had fueled the airplane before they left that morning.

First thing I did, was call the FSDO. I didn't rat him out, or tell them his name or his tail number. I simply asked what my liablilty was as the instructor who had signed him off for solo. They pretty much told me, that I was safe, but mostly because I had made the phone call. The next thing I did, was call the student and told him I had just called the FSDO. I asked him when he planned on coming back, and I told him I would meet him at the airport. I was able to work out a XC with another student there, and signed this other student off for a solo XC home, which we pretty much flew in formation. Oh, and did I mention this other student loved it, cause I made the guy that screwed up pay for me and the school's plane?????

Sure you may be off the hook, but that does not stop the ambulance chaser from dragging you into the law suit if something happens.

 

[anthenry]

I think it is also important to make sure that the student is aware of what the consequences for his actions are. He has been explained the rules, but he may think it is like driving without a drivers license. He may think he will only get a slap on the wrist on be on his way. Not sure if you have made it clear that he will most likely never be able to obtain an FAA certification of any kind. That would make the purchase of his Pacer a waste as well. All I am really saying is that I don't think most people realize how brutal the FAA is and how unforgiving they are.

Regardless, he should be dropped. Acts of anti-authority are dangerous for everybody in the sky and on the ground.

 

[AviatorGator]

This is pretty simple.

Void him.

Drop (kick) him.

Threaten to go to the FSDO if he EVER flies an unauthorized solo ever again. Or, if you're really pissed at him just go straight to the FSDO.

He sounds like the type that will never learn...

 

[upup89]

Kick him to the curb... Its only a matter of time before he gets himself into some trouble.

 

[mshunter]

This is pretty simple.

Void him.

Drop (kick) him.

Threaten to go to the FSDO if he EVER flies an unauthorized solo ever again. Or, if you're really pissed at him just go straight to the FSDO.

He sounds like the type that will never learn...

Why all the threats about going to the FSDO? I am just curious? This is not the kind of thing (aviation) where when things go wrong you get a second chance. Do we realy need someone flying around that is so blatently, knowingly, breaking regs needing a license? Would you want this guy flying on your certificate? After all, you stand just as good a chance of being busted as he does.......

 

[Douglas]

Taxiing isn't breaking any regulations, we had this discussion on another topic I don't remember where. How else are mechanics and line grew taxiing?

Now your schools insurance might be a different story, but if it is his airplane...

Right, I just posted it because the OP addressed it.

How many times will it take to call the FSDO. One, two, ten? Call the FSDO immediatly, as in as soon as normal buisness hours resume. Do you realy want the FAA knocking on your door because you are the last one to sign his logbook? You are only protecting YOURSELF. You have to look out for number one, and thats you.

Chill.
I think aviation is already chockfull of CYA.

You student's ticket is not your ticket.

 

[nbv4]

"CYA" to me means doing your job to the fullest, which in this case is "instructing the student", not "ratting on the student". This guy obviously doesn't understand the severity of his actions. I suggest you have a sit down with this guy and offer him an ultimatum. Either you take heed to my advice, or we never fly again. Have a ground lesson where you you dig up some administrative law hearings where people got busted for flying unlicensed. Have someone else sit with you during this ground lesson so it's two-against-one, and also so you can have a witness to corroborate the fact that you indeed talk to him.

Also I kind of find it funny how a forum of people so gun-ho about "protecting out brotherhood" can be so willing to rat out a fellow aviator because of some vague fear of liability. Hint: An instructor can now and will not be held liable for something the student doing something against the wishes of the instructor. Is anyone out can post a counter example, I'd love to see it.