DPE Stepping on Rudder Pedal to Simulate VMCg?

PilotBeckfizzle

Well-Known Member
What say ye? When working with students I have always pulled the mixture at or below 25% Vr to simulate the loss of an engine on the T/O roll. However, there was a situation with a student on a commercial ME ride where the examiner simply stomped on the pedal to simulate the failure. How do you guys do it and do you feel its fair to force the loss of directional control by rudder input?
 
I have had both done to me . . . it is good practice. I've had examiners pull the engine and step on the pedals. Usually, they step on the pedals right after climb out (pulling an engine 100' AGL is just dumb!
it is important to have the student see how the plane acts when the engine looses partial or full power! Just be ready to be on the controls if/when they mess up!
 
do you feel its fair to force the loss of directional control by rudder input?


From FAAO 8900.1:
5-87 ENGINE SHUTDOWN ON MULTIENGINE AIRPLANES DURING THE PRACTICAL TEST.
A. Preflight Discussion Item. Examiners and ASIs who conduct practical tests in a multiengine airplane must discuss methods of simulating engine failure with the applicant during the required preflight briefing. Examiners or ASIs, as appropriate, and the applicant must discuss and follow the aircraft manufacturer's recommended procedures.

Properly briefed, I'd say it's fair game for the examiner to use, although I don't necessarily agree that it's the best way to perform this task. If the examiner didn't tell the student he would be doing this, then I think he's out of line.
 
On my commercial checkride the check instructor used this method, however he did not brief me on it. When it happened I didn't know what was happening, hesitated and then idled both throttles. In the debrief after the stage check he mentioned that I did poorly on the engine failure prior to take off due to hesitation. I saw it as an unfair trick at the time, and I still do. I conduct 141 stage checks and I always brief the different ways I will fail the engine during the stage check, and when the different types will be used.

Our policy is less than 1/2 VMC prior to take off, No failures between 0-500 AGL. Above 500 AGL with the throttle only, up to 4000 AGL. Thereafter, we use either the mixture or the fuel selector.
 
DPE is simulating an emergency. By definition it should not be briefed if the DPE wants to see reaction to an actual situation.

If the examinee continues forward and runs off the runway, close to at least, he probably shouldn't be flying multi-engine airplanes.
 
My:
CME add-on was done by throttle
MEI was done by the guy stopping on the rudder. I was briefed.

i have no beef with pedal as long as it is briefed that it means engine failure, like TGray said.

He gives it right back when the throttles come down, I didn't see it as a biggie, plus if the student hesitates, the DPE just picks up his foot. I think it could be a smidgen safer, but only by a hair.
 
DPE is simulating an emergency. By definition it should not be briefed if the DPE wants to see reaction to an actual situation.

If the examinee continues forward and runs off the runway, close to at least, he probably shouldn't be flying multi-engine airplanes.


As previously noted, it's required by the PTS to brief it.
 
Not to mention just safe.

It's a training environent. No reason to end up in the grass.

Who was the military guy that didn't brief his crew before doing this and killed them all? Anyone...? He pulled an engine and the VMC rolled...poof...
 
Who was the military guy that didn't brief his crew before doing this and killed them all? Anyone...? He pulled an engine and the VMC rolled...poof...

When was this? Type of aircraft?
 
When was this? Type of aircraft?

Honestly I do not recall but it was a large bomber aircraft and the pilot flying stepped on the wrong pedal if i recall. The recovery then ended in a dutch roll sort of situation that was uncontrollable, the PIC never pushed the other engine back up while trying to recover from this. They swayed back and forth till finally rolling over, we studied it but I don't remember anything except the situation at hand and the fact that it was an un-briefed engine failure. Let me dig back through my notes and see what I can find.
 
MY CMEL examiner used the rudder. Did not mention it during the brief. Was not an issue. If you see the aircraft rapidly departing the centerline and headed toward the grass, abort.

For PMEL, a different examiner used the mixture. Also not briefed.
 
In my MEI training I was taught to utilize both methods with students to ensure that the student is reacting to the loss of directional control rather than the movement of the instructor's hand or the sound of the engine. However, like mentioned, emergency simulations should always be briefed. It can be difficult to simulate emergencies and if you try something new with a student, you'll probably get the "deer-in-the-headlights" look rather than the proper reaction to the emergency.
 
On my commercial checkride the check instructor used this method, however he did not brief me on it. When it happened I didn't know what was happening, hesitated and then idled both throttles. In the debrief after the stage check he mentioned that I did poorly on the engine failure prior to take off due to hesitation. I saw it as an unfair trick at the time, and I still do. I conduct 141 stage checks and I always brief the different ways I will fail the engine during the stage check, and when the different types will be used.

Our policy is less than 1/2 VMC prior to take off, No failures between 0-500 AGL. Above 500 AGL with the throttle only, up to 4000 AGL. Thereafter, we use either the mixture or the fuel selector.

At UND, same policy with the exception that we have no failures airborne below 600' AGL. Also, we can fail the engine with mixture at 3000'AGL, but we can't feather until 4000' AGL.
 
From FAAO 8900.1:
5-87 ENGINE SHUTDOWN ON MULTIENGINE AIRPLANES DURING THE PRACTICAL TEST.
A. Preflight Discussion Item. Examiners and ASIs who conduct practical tests in a multiengine airplane must discuss methods of simulating engine failure with the applicant during the required preflight briefing. Examiners or ASIs, as appropriate, and the applicant must discuss and follow the aircraft manufacturer's recommended procedures.

Properly briefed, I'd say it's fair game for the examiner to use, although I don't necessarily agree that it's the best way to perform this task. If the examiner didn't tell the student he would be doing this, then I think he's out of line.

I agree it is not the most bestest way to evaluate the failure. Additionally, I disagree that stomping on the rudder is an acceptable method of simulating the failure. Further along in the paragraph you quote from the DPE Handbook is "C. Simulated Engine Failure...at altitudes less than 3,000 above the surface simulated engine failure MUST be preformed by adjusting the throttle..."

DPE's are not supposed to interfere with flight controls, and it clearly states what they MUST do in order to simulate an engine failure in a multi engine aircraft. There is no other acceptable method than retarding the throttle.
 
and it clearly states what they MUST do in order to simulate an engine failure in a multi engine aircraft. There is no other acceptable method than retarding the throttle.

Perhaps. I deliberately did not quote that paragraph because it seems clearly intended to forbid the use of any fuel supply controls to kill the engine below 3000 AGL. While using the rudder might be a technical violation of the directive, I think it complies with the intent.
 
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