Prino
Well-Known Member
no...approach does the sequencing and then hands you off to tower
Downwind to Base
- Thread starter Sidious
- Start date
That's poor technique.
Report what you are required to report by regulation, AIM (recommended) or by ATC.
If you have been sequenced (told to follow a particular aircraft) then follow that aircraft. If you have not been sequenced then fly a normal pattern in compliance with whatever ATC instructions you have been given. Once sequenced, unless something changes, there's no need for the controller to talk to you again until he issues the landing clearance. Many controllers will do that mid-field, others may prefer to do it at a different time. If you have not received a clearance to land prior to a reasonable point (500'?) then request landing clearance. No need to make this anymore complicated than that.
Read the regulations and AIM sections regarding airports with operating control towers. That's all you need to know and do.
How about, "XYZ Tower, Cessna 123, Request landing clearance"? I prefer a direct approach.
ppragman
FLIPY FLAPS!
Bad call dude, sorry to join in on the bandwagon, cuz I know it sucks to get pelted on a forum, but look, there are going to be a hundred times that you land at a place with a straight in, then you're not going to have a chance to turn base. Or you may get something strange like "Cessna 123AB, Cancel Landing clearance, fly through final then make a right 270 to enter a left downwind for landing runway 07." The problem with doing something like reporting when there is no need to report is not only that it clutters up a typically congested freq, it also shows to everyone else that you don't know what you're doing. The best way to learn how to talk on the radio, and function in that environment is to listen to how the pros do it, then do it that way.
You can listen to the student pilots talk and you can tell exactly their experience level. "Uhh, Cessna 123AB is at AeroTech, with information whiskey, I'd like to taxi to runway 25 for a shipcreek departure with an altitude deviation." Good god that was verbose. All the commercial operators have it short and concise "Ground, Spernaks 38, at the ramp with alpha, ship creek, deviation." Think that way with yourself. Just be short and concise, don't clutter things up, or muddy the waters, its poor technique, and you'll look like an amateur. And when you look like an amateur (or sound like one) the controllers will treat you as such. Be professional.
The key to this is to be flexible, and to be listening to what's going on in the pattern around you.
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Ha, I don't mind people jumping all over me on a forum...its a forum. I still have much learning to do and would not be learning this if I did not open my mouth. I would rather it here than screwing up in the air. I guess I am just showing my inexperience, which is fine, because I am inexperienced. I have limited controlled field work. The field I fly at always requests a mid field report when doing pattern work. They and other airports I flew into with a tower have requested a position report when entering the pattern at a specific point. "Cessna 123 enter left base for 24 report 3 miles." "Cessna 123 left base 3 miles full stop 24" But, that is probably because I sound like a student.
Its funny, the student call to ground for taxi instructions is exactly how I was taught to talk. I have shortened it up but I am sure I still sound like a newb pilot.
Sidious
Well-Known Member
whysoserial
New Member
I'll add my 2 pennies to the original post as this thing has gone off course.
I work a class C tower.
The most important part of the original post is this:
If you are on downwind and hear the controller talking to a bunch of airplanes for the runway you are also planning on landing on, and the controller has not gotten to you yet...don't turn base. Is it a "rule"? No. It's common sense. If you are flying, try to think outside of your airplane and get the "picture". Turning base could be more costly than slowing down. On downwind, you aren't in anyone's way. If you still haven't gotten instructions when it's time to turn your base, reach out to the controller. Are you going to turn base when you know there's a guy on a 2 mile final even though you have not been given alternate instructions? Doubt it.
Had a situation like this come up the other day. Had a bunch of arrivals coming straight in and downwind. Had a small guy on downwind make a 360 so he didn't end up in the next city. In the meantime there were a couple jets on final for his runway. The next arrival was already cleared to land (#1) and the other one was cleared as well to follow the first one (#2). #1 was 4 miles and sure enough the downwind guy started turning base in front of this jet. Was he wrong? Technically not. If he had just heard the other transmissions going on he would have known he was not #1 and was going to be following someone. That's where the common sense comes into play.
That is all.
I work a class C tower.
The most important part of the original post is this:
If you are on downwind and hear the controller talking to a bunch of airplanes for the runway you are also planning on landing on, and the controller has not gotten to you yet...don't turn base. Is it a "rule"? No. It's common sense. If you are flying, try to think outside of your airplane and get the "picture". Turning base could be more costly than slowing down. On downwind, you aren't in anyone's way. If you still haven't gotten instructions when it's time to turn your base, reach out to the controller. Are you going to turn base when you know there's a guy on a 2 mile final even though you have not been given alternate instructions? Doubt it.
Had a situation like this come up the other day. Had a bunch of arrivals coming straight in and downwind. Had a small guy on downwind make a 360 so he didn't end up in the next city. In the meantime there were a couple jets on final for his runway. The next arrival was already cleared to land (#1) and the other one was cleared as well to follow the first one (#2). #1 was 4 miles and sure enough the downwind guy started turning base in front of this jet. Was he wrong? Technically not. If he had just heard the other transmissions going on he would have known he was not #1 and was going to be following someone. That's where the common sense comes into play.
That is all.
whysoserial
New Member
Dude, don't sweat it. I also fly and will rarely turn base on my own. I don't report abeam and all that but I will make the controller know I'm still out there when it's about time for me to start my base.
Like I said in my last post, it comes down to listening and forming a picture and using common sense after that. Just because you can do something...doesn't mean you should...for everyone's sake. If you listen, you can make a plan and fly your plane accordingly. If you're downwind and think you will be following another aircraft ATC is talking to making a straight in...slow it up and plan for it so you don't end up on a 5 mile final. If your little plan didn't work out that it's easy...just do what they said
Unfortunately it seems more and more people are only concerned with themselves and tune everything out except their own callsign.
mjg407
Well-Known Member
Don't turn crosswind at an airforce field without getting cleared closed traffic or crosswind..... they get peeeeved!
anic:Don't turn crosswind at an airforce field without getting cleared closed traffic or crosswind..... they get peeeeved!
That's their problem, not yours.
The regulations require a clearance for takeoff and landing. They don't require a clearance before turning crosswind, downwind, base or final. If a controller wishes to add restrictions then they must issue those restrictions.
PilotChip
Air Traffic Controller
Great input.
Working class D almost all pilots i've seen will INQUIRE and confirm they are #1, at most, by passing the numbers and approaching their 45 for the base turn with "(c/s), downwind abeam."
The base turn to final is kind of like the chute. If you're not sure whether you should occupy the chute then it's advised to call while still on the downwind - before you become comitted. (i'm not saying it's requried, just helpful!)
Like said earlier - there are MANY things we do that are in ADDITION to our ATC manual. As one of the first paragraphs read "....separate aircraft and issue safety alerts...GOOD JUDGEMENT shall be used in prioritizing all other provisions of this order..." (quoted from brain so may not be exact!)
Just saying that there are times when we go beyond the written rules and use common sense and good judgement as if pic.
