downgrading to FO, and the career

We actually don't have a provision in our contract for taking a voluntary downgrade. Even when they did forced downgrades 2 years ago the company didn't even offer voluntaries (which I think a bunch of people would have taken).

I've been the most junior reserve captain in domicile for about 2 years now and was 5 or so from the bottom for 6 months before that. Starting tomorrow (WAHOO!!!!) I'll have two guys underneath me in base. It doesn't count for much but it looks good on paper. During this time frame I've been doing a 2 leg transcon commute as well. Up until the begging of this Summer I was only fly 20 to 30 hours a month (in May I had more Airbus jumpseat time than I did left seat RJ time and many months I had more deadhead time than I did flying time).

I hit 1000 TPIC yesterday so as far as "checking the box" goes, I'm all set. That said, despite having 1000 TPIC, Southwest, United, Delta and Fedex did not call me this morning offering me a job. Unfortunately, at this point in time I think the 1000 number is simply a requirement for being considered and will mostly only get you the job if you fill some quota that the airline needs filling (and unfortunately for me, white male never seems to need filling).

Commuting across country on reserve sucks. There is two ways about it. In September, the way the schedule worked out, I'll get home for 4 days at the beginning of the month (one of which will be spent commuting back to work) and that's it. Despite that I'm holding on to the seat for three reasons.

1) I know that at some point in the (near) future stuff will pick up again and I'll be able to move on to a better job that provides an easier or no commute option. If I was at someplace like Airways as junior reserve who know I was going to spend the next 10+ years as a reserve, I'd seriously consider taking the downgrade, but because I know there is an expiration date on this position (although I don't know when) I'm willing to stick it out.

2) I don't think 1000 TPIC makes me competitive enough. On a resume 1200 looks better and 1500 looks even better. The flip side of this is because I was a low time (like 1000, not 250) guy when I was hired and I've spent all but 9 months of my airline career on reserve in one seat or the other, I am still short of 4000 hours so my total time is low and going back to a line as an FO would certainly increase that more quickly. That said, I feel slowly raising the TPIC does more for the resume (not to mention the TMAAT question bank) than quickly raising the TT).

3) I like running my cockpit. We are fortunate to only have a few landmine captains on our seniority list but this way I never have to fly with them. Sure there are some goofy FOs out there to, but being in the left seat, I can set the tone more easily and it makes the trips a lot easier. I got very good at playing a chameleon in the right seat, but given the option, I'd rather not have to.

EDawg, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to this. It's what works out best for you. Right now I'm trading short term QOL for quicker potential long term QOL. It may not work out for all I know and if that's the case, the last 2 years of having no QOL what soever will have been something of a waste, but I feel strongly that (for me) that gamble is worth making.
 
mrivc211 said:
E

Take the downgrade and you can sit on my lap to ORD. Then when we fly together, I will accidenty grab the thrust levers while you're flying(no longer power levers prop boy) and give you a deep long stare in the eye.
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Sorry to double post here, but that reminded me of two things I've seen recently.

First, I was jumpseating on a flight about two years ago and the FO was brand new and just off IOE. They're coming down final and at about 1500 feet the FO reaches over to adjust the thrust levers. As soon as he does this the captain reaches over as well and puts his hand on top of the FO's hand and says (with a heavy lisp) "this is going to be a coupled approach". I couldn't stop laughing the rest of the way down final.

Second, about 5 months ago I was jumpseating on one of my company's flights and the CA was making his welcome aboard PA. Just as he started talking the FO (who's actually a downgraded captain) reached over and ran his hand down the outside of his leg. The look on the captain's face was priceless. He was so puzzled and didn't know what was going on.

And now that I've said that, I realize that, from the outside, pilots must look like a bunch of homophobes making gay jokes all day. Interesting.
 
I say stay in the left seat.

I realize that going back to FO will give you a better quality of life. If you were at Delta, I'd say, "Go for it!" But you haven't moved up the food chain yet. You need to keep working on making yourself a better applicant, so you can really slam-dunk an interview and get hired. Face it... Regional pilots are going to be a dime a dozen when hiring picks up. Anything you can do to make yourself a more desirable candidate is the path to choose.

If you aren't worried about when you get hired, then downgrade. It could set you back four or five years from getting to a major (if that is your goal), but if you'd prefer to enjoy your 20's by traveling and living in a more exciting city, then it's the best decision.

When you go into an interview, they are going to wonder why you downgraded. It might be hard to explain. I know at SWA, their head of pilot recruitment said they look down upon people who get 1000 PIC turbine and immediately downgrade. That is why they raised the PIC minimums to 1300 for a while. Too many regional pilots got the magic number, then chased QOL. SWA said they want to hire pilots who are leaders, and putting up with the hit in QOL to be a leader (a Captain) looked good to them.

Personally, I have learned ten times as much about flying, leadership, and myself sitting in the left seat. I continue to learn and grow every day I go fly. I feel I am a completely different person since I've upgraded. I'm more mature, more relaxed, and can handle difficult situations with a more level head. This is directly related to the "trial and error" of being THE person who everyone looks to when the crap hits the fan. These things I've learned will carry over to my personal life, and my professional life in this career or any other I pursue.

So all in all, yes, downgrading might make life easier. But for your own personal and professional growth, fighting through these tough times may pay off dividends in the end.
 
jtrain609 said:
I believe Southwest is up to 1,200 or 1,300 TPIC right now, though it's obviously a moot point being that there is no hiring going on there.

In the coming years, the focus for hiring is going to be at Delta and American.
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It let me fill it out with 1000.2 TPIC. Not that it matters. They took the app down.

We just had a guy here downgrade to FO, and I'd be lying if I said I've never thought about it. Coming up on 3 years as a reserve CA at a company that is famous for abusing their reserves is not fun. If I were a commuter, I'd have jumped on the downgrade. I'm pushing 1500 TPIC at this point, so I've got a fair chunk of time. Living in base makes it easier, plus the huge gap in pay between CA and FO means I'd be taking a cut. If our FO pay was more in line with other regionals, I'd probably make more as a senior FO crediting 90 hours with 17 days off than a reserve CA crediting 75 hours with 10 days off.

1000 TPIC isn't exactly a door buster, either. It's not like trumpets went off and my phone started ringing when I set the brake. I'm still trying to figure out why some guys got the call for jetBlue and I didn't. Maybe I tweaked someone wrong at the open house. :)
 
Having slept on it - Honestly, if perusing a better life for my girlfriend and myself is looked down upon, then it's looked down upon. Maybe I can make up for it in other areas, maybe not, and maybe I'm shortsighted. Working like hell since I started paying my way through flight training nearly 10yrs ago, and after 6yrs of professional flying (sacrificing QOL maybe 5 of those 6 years), I know that at this point life is more important to me than career. I've been told my TT is low and moving to the right seat will help me increase the TT as well. So it's not entirely a backwards step. However flying 270hrs/year in the left, deadheading everywhere and sitting ready rsv, while sacrificing nearly everything else for those hours is not worth it to me - especially since financially it's the same. IF I do land a major job some day, they will be hiring a human being with a life with more to talk about than "reserve sucks". :beer:
 
It's funny too, in person the senior captians usually respond with "you're gonna do whaaat?"

But the reserve captains are pretty understanding.

When you're actually living it, your perspective is completely altered.
 
Good on ya man, sounds like you are making the right decision for yourself.

Best not to be 'that guy' who chases the heavy metal and pay while everything in your life that matters crumbles. Once I get that transfer back home, I'll never play this game again.
 
E_Dawg said:
It's funny too, in person the senior captians usually respond with "you're gonna do whaaat?"

But the reserve captains are pretty understanding.

When you're actually living it, your perspective is completely altered.
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:clap:
You know, I am not an airline pilot, but I don't think I have to be in order to get the big picture. Life is short and there is more to life than flying airplanes. You should work to live and not live to work. Why put yourself through hell for any career and miss out on life?

If a company down the road decides they don't want to hire you because you voluntarily downgraded in order to have a better life, than I'm not so sure I'd really want to work for that company in the end, anyway. The people doing the hiring must have a family and a life. If they can't understand what you did, it is their loss.
 
FlyChicaga said:
So all in all, yes, downgrading might make life easier. But for your own personal and professional growth, fighting through these tough times may pay off dividends in the end.
Click to expand...

I see what you are saying. You are one of those people on JC whose opinion I hold in very high esteem and I appreciate the input. I think it will be interesting returning to the right seat and performing a flight as the FO, having had the experience of being a captain. I think I will pick up more qualities from the captains than I did the first time around, and therefore gain experience from a new perspective. So there is still potential to grow personally and professionally; just depends on how you look at it. Whether that personal and professional growth is going to be desirable to a major airline, well, I guess I can ponder that one when I'm enjoying some QOL... on the beach... in Thailand. ;)
 
mrivc211 said:
E

Take the downgrade and you can sit on my lap to ORD. Then when we fly together, I will accidenty grab the thrust levers while you're flying(no longer power levers prop boy) and give you a deep long stare in the eye.
Click to expand...
Man, if that doesn't seal the deal for you I don't know what will.
 
FlyChicaga said:
I say stay in the left seat.

I realize that going back to FO will give you a better quality of life. If you were at Delta, I'd say, "Go for it!" But you haven't moved up the food chain yet. You need to keep working on making yourself a better applicant, so you can really slam-dunk an interview and get hired. Face it... Regional pilots are going to be a dime a dozen when hiring picks up. Anything you can do to make yourself a more desirable candidate is the path to choose.

If you aren't worried about when you get hired, then downgrade. It could set you back four or five years from getting to a major (if that is your goal), but if you'd prefer to enjoy your 20's by traveling and living in a more exciting city, then it's the best decision.

When you go into an interview, they are going to wonder why you downgraded. It might be hard to explain. I know at SWA, their head of pilot recruitment said they look down upon people who get 1000 PIC turbine and immediately downgrade. That is why they raised the PIC minimums to 1300 for a while. Too many regional pilots got the magic number, then chased QOL. SWA said they want to hire pilots who are leaders, and putting up with the hit in QOL to be a leader (a Captain) looked good to them.

Personally, I have learned ten times as much about flying, leadership, and myself sitting in the left seat. I continue to learn and grow every day I go fly. I feel I am a completely different person since I've upgraded. I'm more mature, more relaxed, and can handle difficult situations with a more level head. This is directly related to the "trial and error" of being THE person who everyone looks to when the crap hits the fan. These things I've learned will carry over to my personal life, and my professional life in this career or any other I pursue.

So all in all, yes, downgrading might make life easier. But for your own personal and professional growth, fighting through these tough times may pay off dividends in the end.
Click to expand...

You're next in line
 
Edawg. I'm guessing we are the exact same seniority. I am gone from home 6 nights a month max and we probably even have similar w2's. Things are not moving anytime soon and reserve at a regional was never intended to be consumed for more than 12 months. Give yourself a break and catch up on your life. If we do ever grow again, you can always re-upgrade.
 
Perhaps you should wait until Nov to see how the upgrades will affect your seniority in Fresno. If there really will be 80 upgrades then the number of guys transitioning from Bro to Jet might be enough to give you a line or even senior reserve where you might fly more.
 
One of my good friends and fellow reservists (he is a CA, I am an FO), just did this very thing and will be returning to the right seat in a few weeks. Such a great guy and a very good captain, just totally burned out from the reserve lifestyle. He seemed to recieve a lot of congratulations from his fellow pilots upon being the lone CA on the bid to be awarded FO.
 
One thing to consider E is upgrade is running 7 years right now with no light at the end of the tunnel. There's guys killing to be able to get some leftseat time but won't be able to for the next 5-7 years. If you take this downgrade, you might be here a while.

Imagine having to sling Talibans gear for the next 5-7! I'm gonna hang my turban on your head after we clear 10,000'. You will go get my chai for me in cruise. Buro buro
 
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