Downfall-The Case Against Boeing (Netflix)

[Murdoughnut]

So I dont waste an hour and a half waiting for some bombshell that isn’t gonna come. You answered my question when responding to the other guy though.

Not a bombshell, but I wasn't aware of the cultural transformation that took place with the MD merger. Hearing former quality control managers talk about how they were pressured to push things forward rather than get it right was pretty eye opening. I'd say that's more the bombshell than anything.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

I think it is unbelievable that some people I know (who have flown 737's) didn't consider it a big problem. The failure mode was getting a stick shaker, and immediately needing 50 - 100lbs of back pressure on the yoke. I don't see in what universe that would be intuitive.

I also remember hearing Southwest and American pilots post crashes saying that they had confidence in the MAX and state that they had no issues. I guess that my question would be why is that? And also thankfully, why were there no crashes here in the states due to MCAS?

 

[Roger Roger]

I also remember hearing Southwest and American pilots post crashes saying that they had confidence in the MAX and state that they had no issues. I guess that my question would be why is that? And also thankfully, why were there no crashes here in the states due to MCAS?

Because “tHrOuGh ThEsE dOoRs…”

 

[Murdoughnut]

Oh, and I thought the piece did a tremendous job with how they covered the overt racism layered over this. They didn't explain it - they just gave it a medium to build on its own with the story. You walk away from that documentary with an understanding of the perception that Thai/Ethiopian pilots were inferior when compared to American pilots, and this was the first place one should look. I don't think the same accusation would be made of a German pilot.

That line from the obviously emotional AA pilot ... "the kid got it right and they still crashed" was moving.

 

[bike21]

I know Jon Ostrower who is interviewed extensively in this - probably the sharoest industry expert I’ve ever run across.

I dunno, kinda hard to put a lot of trust in someone who gets duped by a credit card scam and tries to publicly blame an airline that had nothing to do with it.

 

[Itchy]

Wow, just watched. That was a pretty damning documentary. I bet Boeing has little use for Netflix right now.

 

[NovemberEcho]

Oh, and I thought the piece did a tremendous job with how they covered the overt racism layered over this. They didn't explain it - they just gave it a medium to build on its own with the story. You walk away from that documentary with an understanding of the perception that Thai/Ethiopian pilots were inferior when compared to American pilots, and this was the first place one should look. I don't think the same accusation would be made of a German pilot.

That line from the obviously emotional AA pilot ... "the kid got it right and they still crashed" was moving.

there are several people on this board who said this wouldn’t have happened with American pilots

 

[bike21]

Along with my F*** Putin sentiment…F*** Boeing.

 

[Max Power]

That line from the obviously emotional AA pilot ... "the kid got it right and they still crashed" was moving.

This part was tough to watch. Haven’t finished the show yet, but yeah, Boeings handling of this whole thing was always my biggest problem. I have no love for the 737 beyond the 400 series. That was as big as it should have been. Now it’s a damn taffy pull of a plane on stilts.

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

This part was tough to watch. Haven’t finished the show yet, but yeah, Boeings handling of this whole thing was always my biggest problem. I have no love for the 737 beyond the 400 series. That was as big as it should have been. Now it’s a damn taffy pull of a plane on stilts.

Yeah, but they didn’t get it right.

 

[Max Power]

Yeah, but they didn’t get it right.

I thought the FO got part of it right (killing the stab trim) but the airplane was so out of trim at high speed it was unrecoverable? At least that's what was shown in the scene (Ethiopian 302, not Lion Air 610.)

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Tajer’s the kid got it right segment is in Downfall? I haven’t seen it yet, but this Tajer scene was in PBS Frontline at 37:35



Copy/paste?

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

From the prelim report AFTER the stab trim cutout switches to cutout:


“ From 05:40:42 to 05:43:11 (about two and a half minutes), the stabilizer position gradually moved in the AND direction from 2.3 units to 2.1 units. During this time, aft force was applied to the control columns which remained aft of neutral position. The left indicated airspeed increased from approximately 305 kt to approximately 340 kt (VMO). The right indicated airspeed was approximately 20-25 kt higher than the left.”

That is clearly a nose down trim. So my question is, was it aerodynamic forces which caused the stab trim to go from 2.3 to 2.1 units nose down? Or, is it the worse case: the FO actually spun the wheel the wrong direction?

 

[Inverted]

Yeah, but they didn’t get it right.

Gonna need a little bit more than an accusation here bud...

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Gonna need a little bit more than an accusation here bud...

It's not an accusation. The thrust was set to takeoff and they got up to 340 knots and never reduced power. The cutout switches did the job, but they couldn't overcome the force on the stab because they were way too fast. Then, they turned the switches back on. I'm not blaming them, but saying they got it right is at best a half-truth.

Explainer: Ethiopia crash raises questions over handling of faults on Boeing 737 MAX

Ethiopia's insistence that its pilots followed procedures when their Boeing Co 737 MAX nosedived before a deadly crash, and Boeing's recent declaration that a new software fix makes a "safe plane safer," have set the stage for a lengthy fight over the roles of technology...

www.reuters.com

 

[FlyingAccountant]

I dunno, kinda hard to put a lot of trust in someone who gets duped by a credit card scam and tries to publicly blame an airline that had nothing to do with it.

He seems like a nice guy, but I have trouble taking guys who don't have even a PPL seriously when they start talking about how to fly an airplane.

 

[Skåning]

It's not an accusation. The thrust was set to takeoff and they got up to 340 knots and never reduced power. The cutout switches did the job, but they couldn't overcome the force on the stab because they were way too fast. Then, they turned the switches back on. I'm not blaming them, but saying they got it right is at best a half-truth.

Explainer: Ethiopia crash raises questions over handling of faults on Boeing 737 MAX

Ethiopia's insistence that its pilots followed procedures when their Boeing Co 737 MAX nosedived before a deadly crash, and Boeing's recent declaration that a new software fix makes a "safe plane safer," have set the stage for a lengthy fight over the roles of technology...

www.reuters.com

View attachment 63631View attachment 63631View attachment 63632

That's the current stab runaway memory item, modified after the crashes, but what did it look like at the time?

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

That's the current stab runaway memory item, modified after the crashes, but what did it look like at the time?

Those were referenced in the preliminary report. I believe it came out after the first crash.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Yeah, but they didn’t get it right.

I still haven't seen the documentary but plan to with my wife.

I think the real problem - the Boeing assumption of pilots reacting to MCAS activations on its own without warning repeatedly, to Stab trim runaway - is that it ignores the other factors at play that are unfolding at the same time.



Right at takeoff because the AOA sensor went bad (Lion Air miscalibrated by MX, Ethiopian bird strike), the stick shaker went off and continued. The stick shaker on the 737 is loud. It can easily mask the ZZZZZZzzz noise that the stab trim makes when it moves. You're dealing with a stick shaker (first assumption might be stall?), then messages on the PFD for AOA disagree and airspeed / altitude disagree. And oh by the way you're supposed to know by now (it's been more than 5 seconds!) that your stab trim is running away and you need to do the stab trim cutout memory item and checklist. When ALL that is put together, it's about 5 different problems almost concurrently (although MCAS wouldn't fire until flaps were up, so it wouldn't have been the first failure they pilots saw).

Lion Air I can understand because it was the first. The Ethiopian is harder to understand. They knew about MCAS by then, they knew how to stop it - including flaps out of 0. They could have done a few things to make sure they didn't crash. For Ethiopian, the crew experience absolutely came into play in terms of outcome. They should have known about MCAS and handled the situation properly.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

the first 20 min was an abortion. next 20 were ok, just omitting obvious information. Starting at about 39 or 40 min in, they really found solid ground to run on.

Says a lot they couldn't get the Seattle Times guy to do the "Documentary", they used the WSJ guy that referenced whole sections of the Seattle Times piece. Netflix or whoever was show runner, can't just point at the seattle times article if the guy won't approve it, so they got that WSJ guy paid to do it. Weak, but if people watch after the 40 minute mark, then it's all worth it.

Single point failures. Crj200 old flap motor. The Concorde wheel assembly. the single AOA. Single point failures are the black hole that suck in and crush human lives. How Boeing ever got that through the FAA twice is astounding. I still don't believe it sometimes.

Just finished watching the documentary.

Of course the first 20 minutes was an abortion to you. The first 20 minutes was them attempting to humanize the brown and black victims of that crash, including the Lion Air CA's wife. If only those foreign brown and black pilots knew how to fly right?