Door warning passing through 80 knots

That might be a different situation if you were driving an airplane that was known for having a door opening being a fatal encounter. I dunno.

Okay, i did not see that it was a 402 in the OP, that was not brought up until later. Do those really have "captains" or simply pilots anyway? :insane:

I've never flown a 402 but it's a pretty terrible design if having a door come unlatched can end the whole show in my opinion. It seems odd that such a plane could get type certification. What happened? Did the door fly off and decapitate the pilot or cut an elevator in half?

Either way, if it was one of those nose cone doors, couldn't you see it flapping around? In that case, okay, maybe in a 402 you should abort. I don't really know. I've only got a few hours of ride-along time in a 421 from about 6 years ago and I remember very little.
 
Okay, i did not see that it was a 402 in the OP, that was not brought up until later. Do those really have "captains" or simply pilots anyway? :insane:

I'm not really sure. I have to laugh when someone calls me "captain" (even though we fly two-crew and my badge says "captain"). But I do know that it's an airplane just like any other airplane. Just as valid a scenario as any.
 
I'm surprised maintenance didn't deactivate the annunciator once it was MEL'd.

I would have continued the takeoff and flown to the destination. That light is inoperative and should be disregarded as a reliable indication of the door latch position.

I agree with what you did Dasleben.
 
The beauty of having an MEL. I always wind up falling back to 91.213 where it goes on about placarding, removing, deactivating... Why would a pilot want an indicator that has been proven to be faulty?

All in the interest of improved dispatchabilty, but it does leave it up to the pilot to interpret known bad indications.

Travis, what would you have done?
 
Travis, what would you have done?

Pulled the chu...

DAMNIT, there I go again.

Having no time in a 402, I can't say. Sounds as if the AFM is pretty adamant about not aborting above 80 knots unless the aircraft is unflyable. I'd say it would be pretty noticeable if the door was actually ajar, in both tactile and audible senses

We had them in the Lear occasionally for the aft door, albeit in cruise. It would blink for about 2 seconds, set off the MWS, and then go away. We knew it was a bad micro-switch somewhere on the door assembly, and were finally able to track it down in the shop.

If I as the captain was the one doing the door closing and was damn sure it was closed and latched, I would have gone flying.
 
From the description of the aircraft and the MEL procedure I would be comfortable going in that situation. It would be nice if the indicating system were deactivated as well. However, I don't think you could fault a guy for aborting either. At 80 knots you are not going to damage anything with that much runway available.

Many companies use 80 knots as a transition from the low speed to high speed regime. If it happens AT 80 you could go either way. In my present aircraft if I got a door warning at 80 knots I'm stopping. A cabin door wouldn't be an issue but a cargo door is another story. I'm not going to pull up the lower EICAS to determine which one either. Stop and sort it out. That said, I'm not sure if we have an MEL for the indicating system or not since I don't have it in front of me. I'll snoop around and see.
 
From the description of the aircraft and the MEL procedure I would be comfortable going in that situation. It would be nice if the indicating system were deactivated as well. However, I don't think you could fault a guy for aborting either. At 80 knots you are not going to damage anything with that much runway available.

Many companies use 80 knots as a transition from the low speed to high speed regime. If it happens AT 80 you could go either way. In my present aircraft if I got a door warning at 80 knots I'm stopping. A cabin door wouldn't be an issue but a cargo door is another story. I'm not going to pull up the lower EICAS to determine which one either. Stop and sort it out. That said, I'm not sure if we have an MEL for the indicating system or not since I don't have it in front of me. I'll snoop around and see.
What type?

-mini
 
From the description of the aircraft and the MEL procedure I would be comfortable going in that situation. It would be nice if the indicating system were deactivated as well. However, I don't think you could fault a guy for aborting either. At 80 knots you are not going to damage anything with that much runway available.

Many companies use 80 knots as a transition from the low speed to high speed regime. If it happens AT 80 you could go either way. In my present aircraft if I got a door warning at 80 knots I'm stopping. A cabin door wouldn't be an issue but a cargo door is another story. I'm not going to pull up the lower EICAS to determine which one either. Stop and sort it out. That said, I'm not sure if we have an MEL for the indicating system or not since I don't have it in front of me. I'll snoop around and see.

A certain unnamed American operator of the same type allows for the Door Indication (for all the doors) to be MEL'd. The EICAS message may or may not be displayed.
 
Add me to the 'go' pile. Door lights are nororious, especially ones with big INOP letters covering them. An abort IS a big deal even with 3000' of supposed wiggle room (on paper. on a dry runway)
 
For the -400 any of the door open messages are either a caution or advisory. The passenger doors (all 10 of them) are an advisory and are actually able to be opened in flight for smoke evac purposes (hate to be the poor FA who had to do it though!).

Anyway, above 80 knots all cautions are inhibited anyway so we wouldn't know about it until the inhibit is gone (400'). So basically, prior to 80 knots, a cargo door coming open would be an abort as it would trigger a master caution. After 80 knots we would find out about it airborne. Our QRH calls for setting the cabin alt to 8,000-8,500 feet and leveling off at or below that altitude. While it doesn't directly say to land it is assumed because who is gonna tool around at 8,000 ft. all day in a 747.

I know of at least one hull loss in a 747 due to a cargo door coming open in flight and that lead to a design change.

As for the MEL, I'll look our up. All of our manuals are on the aircraft and online but I couldn't download it earlier. I have a paper set but not the DDG (dispatch deviation guide), which is a fancy name for the MEL/CDL. I'll look it up in there as well but I'm sure there is a procedure in there somewhere.

Anyway, back to where we were, 80 kts is a key and aircraft type is as well. In the original posters case, as I said before, it would be a PIC decision and I don't think you could fault someone for going either way in that particular case.

Update: The procedure is basically the same as the OP used and I have used on every other type I've flown. Visually inspect that the door is closed then you can go. I don't have access to the actual MX procedure so I'm not sure if they would deactivate the sensors on that door or not but I would assume that they do. That's what it all boils down to, if it is MEL'd then the sensor should be deactivated to prevent an unnecessary caution or warning.
 
I'm a go for the door as well. In training, we were taught that if the nose baggage door goes, STOP. That will more likely do damage if you continue then if you locked em up on centerline. On a cabin door in the aircraft I fly, sometimes cargo can shift and if it pushes just right on the door, the light will come on, even if the door is secured. Training dept said continue, circle and land. Don't abort for the cabin, but for the nose... hit the brakes. Actually.. that comes from two different training departments on the same type.
 
Sorry for the thread hijack, Captain. But...




Mike, you aware of anyone up in the APA or COS area hiring? Got a buddy just moved up there from the ISM area looking for work.

-mini

I haven't heard of any jobs out this way in a long time, though I know of at least 3 airplanes that have been sold in the past couple of months. I heard key lime, where no one should work, let some people go.
 
I'm assuming the MEL has something along the lines of "the pilot will visually verify the door is closed"

If that's the case, I'm going. We checked the door before we left and it was closed. The door warning system isn't working anyway so shouldn't be relied upon.

Now if the door system wasn't MELed...at least on my airplane I'd stop. On a 7000 ft runway you'd have plenty of room to stop a CRJ-700. Also if the main passenger door on the CRJ opens in flight I seriously doubt it would stay on the airplane. And something that big could do some pretty serious damage to the wing, gear, engine, etc.
 
I haven't heard of any jobs out this way in a long time, though I know of at least 3 airplanes that have been sold in the past couple of months. I heard key lime, where no one should work, let some people go.
Thanks for the info. I'll pass it along.

-mini
 
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