Door warning passing through 80 knots

dasleben said:
Pretty much what I said above. Below 80, abort for anything. Above 80, abort for engine failure, fire, loss of control. Company policy.

Well that's no fun. This wouldn't be a very good thread if I just told everyone what I did. :D
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The reason I asked the question is, I'm curious what you decided at the gate, with far less pressure than a split second decision on take off.

...and, since you made a decision at the gate, did you stick with it when you were put in that situation?

I know nothing of 402s (other than what I learned watching "WINGS" on TV as a kid), a little bit of performance stuff relating to Part 25 (but not too much, as evidenced in our OEI thread), but take the Human Factors stuff/Error Management stuff in a real way.

So for my own fruition, I'd like to hear what you planned, what action you ended up doing, and your debrief on it.
 
I should have qualified that with "Accel/stop distance notwithstanding"

Even if it takes a few hundred feet of runway to react, accelerate/stop +3000' should be adequate under almost any conditions.

Even for me ;)
 
Can't really help much there. I think Key Lime is usually looking for people, but I've heard mixed reviews (at best) on them. I know they have a pay-to-train program for SIC for their metroliners. Paying fairly big $$$ to be a required crewmember on a revenue flight doesn't really appeal to me that much.
 
I think he had looked into them. He's just on the good side of 2000 TT with a few hundred multi and a handful of turbine. Just trying to "pay his dues" and pay the bills!

Thanks for the info!

Okay, cap'n...back to your door light.

-Lord
​
 
Why trust a light thats MEL'd? If you did that where I work you'd probably end up with a few days off.
Example: Fuel quantity indicators are MEL'd. Fuel on board has been verified by mtx through gravity indicators. Even a little extra added for safety. Flight departs normally and a few minutes in to cruise the fuel pump run lights come on due to the fuel quantity indicators fluctuating and showing a low fuel situation. You know for a fact you have 5 hours of fuel on board. Do you turn around because faulty fuel indicators show 20 minutes of fuel or do you continue because on paper and in your mind you know you have 5+ hrs?
The wrong decision got a person the rest of the week off.
 
Apples and oranges. You watched the fuel go into the plane...you know it's there. If you didn't watch it go in, then you don't know it's there. But we'll pretend you do.

In this situation, you don't have any clue if the door is really closed or if the light is just FUBAR. Could be either.

Err on the side of safety.

-mini
 
minitour said:
In this situation, you don't have any clue if the door is really closed or if the light is just FUBAR. Could be either.
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Really? Did you let someone else close it?

If I closed it and latched it properly myself, and visually checked the pins (if I have the ability to see them)- which is all going to be required as a condition for the deferral anyways- then I'm going to believe myself over a light as long as there's no associated calamity when it goes off. I hardly think a 402 is a big enough airplane that you'd not notice a door coming open.

If it was that big of a deal on any particular aircraft type, it wouldn't be deferrable.
 
minitour said:
I think that's the deal...maybe that's just the cargo doors.

Cap'n?

-mini
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Our rampers close the doors, but we have a specific procedure for verifying their security. Works pretty well.

-The pilot does a tactile check of the nose baggage doors, which are not covered by the door warning light.

-When the passengers are all loaded, the ramper closes the main cabin door for us. While he's doing that, the pilot observes him rotate the handle all the way to the stop, then do a tactile check of the door. In my case, I watched him secure the door, and was confident that it was secure. That's simply based on my experience in the airplane, however. I watched him push and pull slightly on it after latching it, and from my experience if it wasn't fully latched it would have popped open at that time.

-The ramper signals the pilot that he's about to begin a second walkaround and door check. The pilot responds with another signal, and that second check is commenced.

-Once the ramper is done with his door check, he signals to the pilot that all the doors are secure. The pilot then checks the door warning light, and if it's extinguished, signals to start engines.

There is currently no requirement for a pilot to check the main cabin door after the ramper closes it, even with the MEL in place. It's usually due to CG issues that can occur with 9 passengers onboard; if one of the pilots gets out of his seat, the airplane could potentially tail-over. I really like the idea when CG isn't critical, though.

So, that being said, here's what I did:

I continued the takeoff. Passing through 1000' I engaged the autopilot and pulled out the QRH to see what it said about the problem. The QRH only addresses actual open doors, so it wasn't much help (pretty surprising; they did a nice job with this QRH). I then looked at each door and could tell that nothing was open, and that all the doors, at least from my seat, appeared to be secure. After that I pulled out the logbook and read over the previous writeup about how it'd illuminated in-flight.

My decision was made a bit easier after that because the light actually extinguished as I climbed up a bit higher. When that happened, I continued to my destination, and found the door to be perfectly secure when we got on the ground.

But, what would everyone have done if it didn't go away?
 
minitour said:
(+ Pins fail. Doors pop open. It happens.)

-mini
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Agreed. Having flown airplanes involved in fatal accidents due to nose doors opening (Navajos and CJs), I'm extremely paranoid about these doors, and I lock them up even if I know I'll be opening it back up 30 secs later. Still, we all make mistakes and parts fail. Aborting a takeoff role at 80 kts in a cabin class twin on a 7,000 ft runway is not what I would consider a high risk event, not even close. Taking off with a questionable door/locker light is a different matter.
 
wrxpilot said:
Agreed. Having flown airplanes involved in fatal accidents due to nose doors opening (Navajos and CJs), I'm extremely paranoid about these doors, and I lock them up even if I know I'll be opening it back up 30 secs later.
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I'm constantly bitching at the FO about that. It's amazing how many times we'll take the pax out, he'll get 'em boarded and start to brief as I do a last minute walk around (checking fuel caps, doors, etc.) and find that a nose baggage door hasn't been key locked.

...or he'll leave 'em open and walk away. :mad::mad::mad:

-mini
 
minitour said:
I'm constantly bitching at the FO about that. It's amazing how many times we'll take the pax out, he'll get 'em boarded and start to brief as I do a last minute walk around (checking fuel caps, doors, etc.) and find that a nose baggage door hasn't been key locked.

...or he'll leave 'em open and walk away. :mad::mad::mad:

-mini
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I don't wreck cars or start bar fights either, lol!
 
wrxpilot said:
Agreed. Having flown airplanes involved in fatal accidents due to nose doors opening (Navajos and CJs), I'm extremely paranoid about these doors, and I lock them up even if I know I'll be opening it back up 30 secs later. Still, we all make mistakes and parts fail. Aborting a takeoff role at 80 kts in a cabin class twin on a 7,000 ft runway is not what I would consider a high risk event, not even close. Taking off with a questionable door/locker light is a different matter.
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I just want to make sure it's understood that these cabin doors won't result in a loss of control, or get blown off into an engine. Now a nose door, yeah, we'd have a completely different scenario.

While I agree that it's not normally a high risk event, here's what our QRH says about post-80 knot aborts:

"Heavy braking during an aborted takeoff can result in blown or damaged
tires and/or damage to aircraft structures. Following any abort above 80
KIAS, maintenance personnel must inspect the airplane."
So, either that or go into the air with the possibility that one of your cabin doors may come open? I take it into the air, but that's based on my own experience with the airplane.
 
Knowing a little about the airplane and the system, I'd say go.
 
No, don't abort.

This is a classic upgrade sim scenario, and you'll have some 'splainin to do if you abort for that above 80 knots, even with no MEL's.

It won't take long to tell if the aircraft is pressurizing properly, in which case an air return is probably better than a high speed abort. I wouldn't even abort for it below 80 knots if the system was MEL'd, to be honest. Usually that sort of MEL requires extra verification by the ground crews that all doors are closed and secure.
 
Alchemy said:
No, don't abort.

This is a classic upgrade sim scenario, and you'll have some 'splainin to do if you abort for that above 80 knots, even with no MEL's.

It won't take long to tell if the aircraft is pressurizing properly, in which case an air return is probably better than a high speed abort. I wouldn't even abort for it below 80 knots if the system was MEL'd, to be honest. Usually that sort of MEL requires extra verification by the ground crews that all doors are closed and secure.
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That might be a different situation if you were driving an airplane that was known for having a door opening being a fatal encounter. I dunno.
 
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