Don't need a degree eh?

jtrain609 said:
Well that's good, you pretty much can't get the job unless you do the jet course. Glad you're taking something away from this site!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'll take it after I get into the Lear. Sure, the lear is technically a jet, but it doesn't have glass so I probably would be lost in the "real thing."

mikecweb said:
Yeah that's why I said could.


See Kris and him advertised their decision in different light but the real reason was because of Ian's pending RJ flying and my threat to eat whatever children they might have had.
Click to expand...

You just want to eat them to absorb my super powers and good looks.
 
ready2fly said:
K. Just read most of this thread and here are my $0.02:

Jtrain is spot on. Regardless how he said it - he's correct.

Some examples:

In the past week, I've flown with the following captains:
- Former F4, F5, F16 driver with a degree in engineering from Clemson
- Former F15, F111 driver with a degree from the Air Force Academy

These two, in particular, awaiting class dates at a legacy. Their counterparts at my regional with no degree and more time - will remain at the regional. Why? No degree.

On the flip side of that is the extremely low time hiring that's going on.

I just finished recurrent ground and this was a very large topic of conversation. The check airman who did the class commented that he was flying with a new-hire two weeks ago. The guy had something like 350 TT. They shot an approach into LIT down to mins and the FO zoned. Got so far behind the checklist to the point where he just stopped making any callouts whatsoever.

So, here is the captain, with 70 pax in the back - basically flying single pilot IFR down to minimums.

After landing, the FO said "That was COOL! That was my first approach in the real stuff!"

Captain: In this plane?

FO: Ever!

Do you think the passengers deserve that? Is that what you pay for as a pax when YOU fly?

Right now, my regional has a 270 TT pilot in training. That, my friends, is downright scary!

The Check Airman also said he had to Un-Sat a captain (eventually got it changed to an Incomplete) and his FO on a checkride ....because the 400TT new-hire couldn't read an emergency checklist, let alone a normal one...spent almost three minutes looking for a bleed air switch on the overhead......

...and when the check airman went before the board the next day to explain - they overturned the un-sat on the FO too and let the kid slide.

Why? Because they need warm bodies in the right seat.

Unbelieveable!!

I was hired in 2006 with 1300TT/115ME/5turbine and had something like 10 hours of actual and had shot numerous approaches down to minimums.........and still felt like (and was) a "low time pilot."

I'm two years into my airline career now and have learned enough to know that I still don't know squat.

It's the sense of entitlement that we're seeing coming out of flight training that is also scary. Kids from Riddle, NDU, Purdue, FSI, Delta Connection Academy....etc. are coming in with barely their commercial and acting as if it's their RIGHT to be in the left seat TOMORROW!

As for getting to a legacy any time soon if you're not sitting in the left seat of a regional right now - forget about it.

I meet the mins for DAL, but won't be receiving an invite to interview until I get some PIC - and as far as I've heard, most regionals are either not upgrading or their upgrades are sitting at anywhere between 3-8 years.

In short - to echo Jtrain's sentiment: There are no shortcuts in this industry!

To sum it all up and hopefully put it in perspective - my buddy who I went through new-hire training with, left my regional after a year to fly for a fractional where he upgraded to captain in 4 months.

His ultimate goal is to get back to the airlines.

He currently has just over 3000 TT/1500ME/300TPIC ........ and cannot get a reply from a legacy. Why?

Read carefully.

He has no college degree. Period.

He went to a job fair where United, CAL & NW were present. Every single one of them said he'd need a college degree to be considered.

You may not like how Jtrain said it, but his frustration is warranted and if you can't take it when somebody leaves off the candy coat - perhaps this whole airline thing isn't for you.

Just my $0.02. Spend it wisely.

R2F
Click to expand...

I like it.
 
surreal1221 said:
R2F FTW!!!1

Well said brosef. If only some were listening.
Click to expand...
I know man, I know.

But, I was a thick-headed wannabe not too long ago myself and called out, with passion, what I percieved then as negativity - and what I realize now is reality.

We all live, learn and grow my brotha! ;)
 
Part of me wants to print what you just said R2F, and post it across my current work center. I really would love to find a way to hide it into the little CRJ packets that the RJ transition kiddies get when they arrive.

Hmmm.
 
jtrain609 said:
I hope everybody that contributed to this thread shows to NJC, BTW. If they don't they've wasted a lot of their time talking big but without doing anything to help further themselves with networking contacts this website has to offer.
Click to expand...

There is nothing offered to me at NJC.


Nothing!

Except that goodie bag. I like that.
 
ready2fly said:
He went to a job fair where United, CAL & NW were present. Every single one of them said he'd need a college degree to be considered.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

Why anyone who is applying for a job would give the company they're applying to ANY reason to toss their resume, I'll never know.

You can keep on saying, oh, well, Bill Gates doesn't have a college degree and neither does Michael Dell so it can be done.

Yeah? And there's only one Bill Gates and only one Michael Dell.

That's like me saying, well, Alex Ovechkin can do it and I've got the same skates and visor as he has, so I can too. Or Stan saying, well, Randy Moss can do it, so I can too.

You're hearing from person after person that if you don't have a college degree, you won't get what you want.

But you insist you know better.

Not smart.
 
Hell, by the time generic no-degree Joe finishes reading all 8 pages of this thread, he could have gone and graduated by now.
 
surreal1221 said:
Part of me wants to print what you just said R2F, and post it across my current work center. I really would love to find a way to hide it into the little CRJ packets that the RJ transition kiddies get when they arrive.

Hmmm.
Click to expand...

Are a lot of people taking the course?
 
ready2fly said:
K. Just read most of this thread and here are my $0.02:

Jtrain is spot on. Regardless how he said it - he's correct.

Some examples:

In the past week, I've flown with the following captains:
- Former F4, F5, F16 driver with a degree in engineering from Clemson
- Former F15, F111 driver with a degree from the Air Force Academy

These two, in particular, awaiting class dates at a legacy. Their counterparts at my regional with no degree and more time - will remain at the regional. Why? No degree.

On the flip side of that is the extremely low time hiring that's going on.

I just finished recurrent ground and this was a very large topic of conversation. The check airman who did the class commented that he was flying with a new-hire two weeks ago. The guy had something like 350 TT. They shot an approach into LIT down to mins and the FO zoned. Got so far behind the checklist to the point where he just stopped making any callouts whatsoever.

So, here is the captain, with 70 pax in the back - basically flying single pilot IFR down to minimums.

After landing, the FO said "That was COOL! That was my first approach in the real stuff!"

Captain: In this plane?

FO: Ever!

Do you think the passengers deserve that? Is that what you pay for as a pax when YOU fly?

Right now, my regional has a 270 TT pilot in training. That, my friends, is downright scary!

The Check Airman also said he had to Un-Sat a captain (eventually got it changed to an Incomplete) and his FO on a checkride ....because the 400TT new-hire couldn't read an emergency checklist, let alone a normal one...spent almost three minutes looking for a bleed air switch on the overhead......

...and when the check airman went before the board the next day to explain - they overturned the un-sat on the FO too and let the kid slide.

Why? Because they need warm bodies in the right seat.

Unbelieveable!!

I was hired in 2006 with 1300TT/115ME/5turbine and had something like 10 hours of actual and had shot numerous approaches down to minimums.........and still felt like (and was) a "low time pilot."

I'm two years into my airline career now and have learned enough to know that I still don't know squat.

It's the sense of entitlement that we're seeing coming out of flight training that is also scary. Kids from Riddle, NDU, Purdue, FSI, Delta Connection Academy....etc. are coming in with barely their commercial and acting as if it's their RIGHT to be in the left seat TOMORROW!

As for getting to a legacy any time soon if you're not sitting in the left seat of a regional right now - forget about it.

I meet the mins for DAL, but won't be receiving an invite to interview until I get some PIC - and as far as I've heard, most regionals are either not upgrading or their upgrades are sitting at anywhere between 3-8 years.

In short - to echo Jtrain's sentiment: There are no shortcuts in this industry!

To sum it all up and hopefully put it in perspective - my buddy who I went through new-hire training with, left my regional after a year to fly for a fractional where he upgraded to captain in 4 months.

His ultimate goal is to get back to the airlines.

He currently has just over 3000 TT/1500ME/300TPIC ........ and cannot get a reply from a legacy. Why?

Read carefully.

He has no college degree. Period.

He went to a job fair where United, CAL & NW were present. Every single one of them said he'd need a college degree to be considered.

You may not like how Jtrain said it, but his frustration is warranted and if you can't take it when somebody leaves off the candy coat - perhaps this whole airline thing isn't for you.

Just my $0.02. Spend it wisely.

R2F
Click to expand...

...yea, whatever Stan, I don't need a four year degree to fly for a major!*
 
emb1452crj200 said:
There are a few Captains where I work who have college degrees, are check airmen, have plenty of 121 turbine PIC time, and good employment records who can't get hired by the majors. These guys are young too. So before you climb the mountain to thump your chest and shout to the world that you are better than a man who has no degree ask this question. Why can't these guys get hired?
Click to expand...

There's usually something more to the story that they aren't telling you.

Unequivocally, like I've said thousands of times, you need to meet the minimum standards off the bat.

There is not pilot 'shortage' at the majors. They're highly selective and without solid internal recommendations and a very clean employment history, you will encounter an uphill battle.

Plus, you've got to interview well.

Chuck Yeager can interview for an airline job, has thousands of hours in high performance aircraft and probably has the education requirements met, but if the guy acts like a tool during the interview process, no one's going to want to hire THAT liability.

We can run the thread to 120 pages, but it does not change the fact that if an airline "requires" a degree and you want to work there, you need to have it. If an airline heavily "prefers" a degree, you're most likely not going to get called until they're out of applicants, many which may not be as skilled or as friendly as you are, because of that basic requirement.

I had to get a restricted radio telephone permit to fly a 1900. No one asks for it, no one checks for it, there's no logical reason in the world to have one. But if I wanted to fly it, well, the company I applied for required that I have it.

I could spend an inordinate amount of time contemplating my navel trying to justify why, or just get 'er done and acquire the radio license.

Remember, it doesn't matter what you or I think is logical, or fair. It's about meeting the profile of the company which you would like to work for. And you need to interview well.
 
Doug Taylor said:
...Chuck Yeager can interview for an airline job, has thousands of hours in high performance aircraft and probably has the education requirements met, but if the guy acts like a tool during the interview process, no one's going to want to hire THAT liability...
Click to expand...
Nah, he wouldn't make it past HR. He doesn't have a degree. ;) :D
 
jtrain609 said:
Heya,


I'm up kinda late tonight (for me), have a few minutes on my hands and thought I'd throw something up here about something that has been bugging me. This topic comes up pretty often so I figured, why not throw down my opinion on the subject, as I seem to give my opinion on just about everything else in the world. It didn't really fit within the degree thread, so this one is getting started.

For you cats out there that are getting into this gig and want to meet the minimum standards for this job, I've got some really bad news for you; you're most likely in a lot of trouble. Do you guys actually think that you can get into this industry, meet the minimum qualifications and have choice companies knocking on your door?

We've got kids out there who come on and ask, "Do I REALLY need a degree?" or, "I don't wanna flight instruct! Do I have to?" As far as I'm concerned, if you need to ask the question, you need not apply.

To all you new guys; listen up. You are entering a profession of overachievers, people smarter than you, people more driven than you, people more dedicated than you, people that have 4.0's from schools you didn't even dare apply to, people that are better looking than you, people that are more likable than you and people that have better training than you.

THESE are the people you are competing with for jobs. Read that word again; competing. You are trying to best these people in order to get the job that BOTH of you want, and in some situations only one of you will get it.

If you think that it's a good idea to skip flight instructing, skip college, skip flying freight, skip the regionals, skip charter, skip corporate or skip any number of things that will make you a better, more well rounded pilot in addition to a better, more well rounded person then you might as well just get your application to Mesa in order because that could well be the final stop for you.

I don't mean to be TOO negative, but there needs to be a bit of a reality check in this department. There has been so much hiring going on in the last few years at the regionals that I think everybody has gotten the idea that all you EVER needed to get a job at an airline was 600/100. Let me tell you what kids.

Two years ago when I was looking flight instructor jobs, I was told at something like 10 different interviews from the get go that if I didn't go to Riddle or UND, they probably weren't interested. 6 months later people couldn't find enough instructors. A year and a half ago when I was looking for work at a regional you couldn't buy an interview with under 1000/200. Now? 250/0 and you're flying Dash-8's or EMB-145's. Upgrades were running ULTRA fast at some companies. A year at Skywest, 18 months at Express, a year at CHQ.

This is not the norm, and things WILL start to slide back in the other direction. It always has and it always will.

Things are slowing down. Hiring is slowing down, the economy is slowing down and the qualifications to get these jobs WILL go up. Do you really think it's a prudent idea to forgo college, forgo having a flight instructor certificate and forgo any other chance you may have of building some PIC time doing banner tow, throwing meat missiles or any other ways to build time BEFORE you get to an airline cockpit? What are you going to have when the furlough comes, and believe me if you miss a furlough in this industry count yourself among the lucky ones. That 500 hours of SIC ERJ time like the other 700 guys you just ended up on the street with isn't going to get you much.

Me? I'm 25, flight instructed, spent time in a large air carrier's training department, passed three part 135 checkouts, passed a 121 checkout, never failed a check ride, never had a student fail a check ride (part 91 or 135), have a college degree, a cute fiance and I've got a lot of friends that would walk in a resume for me. And to be completely honest with you, I still VERY much view myself as an extremely low time pilot and that I'm not that well qualified, but I'd put my resume up to a cat that walked outta some academy with no degree and no real world experience.

So what are you going to do to combat that and make yourself a more marketable pilot who will get the job instead of me?

You're going to do everything you can to become a well rounded pilot, a better connected pilot, a well rounded individual and if you're smart you'll try like heck to best me in every way that you possibly can because when the furlough hits, I'm not worried in any way about being able to find another flying job. And if I can't? Tough luck, I go to law school and make more money than I would as a pilot anyway. I can do that because, guess what kids, I went to college and got a pre-law degree.

What makes YOU more marketable? Folks have GOT to start looking at this stuff and saying, "How can I make myself a better, more marketable pilot" instead of saying, "Oh gee whiz I've gotta teach! Oh no! That's horrible! I just wanna fly a jet! I don't want to do anything more than the minimum amount of work!"

And since I didn't mention it, GO TO NETWORK JETCAREERS! Anybody that doesn't make it is simply making it harder for themselves to get a job. I've gotten every job I've had in the aviation industry because of people I met at NJC, and I imagine that trend will continue.

Make yourself more marketable, make yourself stand out, go ABOVE AND BEYOND EVERYBODY ELSE, don't go for the minimum standard, network and make friends and if I haven't said it yet GO TO COLLEGE and be ready and willing to WALK AWAY from this career if it doesn't give YOU what you want out of it.
Click to expand...

Hey jtrain,

I like the substance of your post. I concur with your pragmatic view of what it takes or will take to get into this industry. I am just starting out in this profession and it's people like you who are able to keep my head on an even kilter.

Like you I am also a college grad with two degrees. An Associates in Respiratory Therapy and a Bachelors in Biology with a minor in Biochemistry. I am 28 and have spent the last nine years working as a Respiratory Therapist. I am no longer excited about what I do for a living. I have always wanted to be an airline pilot, not because of the money, but because of the passion I have for aviation. I could care less about the income! I am starting ATP in March. I am fully aware that this a very expensive pilot mill, however I am not getting any younger and would like to start a family in the future. I would never dream of getting into a field such as aviation without a college education! College, IMHO, prepares you for life and life's challenges. Sure it may take a while to complete your goals but in the end its worth it. You know what, if I ever get furloughed from the airlines, I can still work as a therapist making 60,000 a year. I may not like it but it pays the bills. Everyone has to breathe to live! Just my two cents.

-fly safe:rawk:
 
emb1452crj200 said:
BronxATP, please realize that I am not attacking you as much as I am attacking your thought. You are a college educated person who is a Repiratory Therapist. I hope you didn't walk into the hospital and declare that you have a passion for that industry and want to be there no matter the income. This is exactly what the pilots in this industry have declared when faced with requests for concessions from management. " Sure, pay us less for doing this job!" This is why I don't agree with the " don't have a degree aint gitten nowhere" crowd.

You should care about the income especially when you have a family. Dessertdog, like me, used to drive tractor trailers making great money. We both wanted to fly for a living. We both left the trucking industry and earned all of the required ratings to fly for a regional. He left his regional and went back to instructing to make more money, and be home every night with his family. The money at the regionals just isn' there because pilots don't care about the income. They care about the passion for aviation. I have a passion for flying, but I want to get paid more than I want to quench that passion. I am not college eduacated so please be gentle with me for wanting to quench my thirst for money and forgo the passion.

Some would ask, "then why are you still here?" The answer is I am stubborn, hard headed, and spent 20 years of my life to get to this point. Making very little money, but a miniscule amount of debt enables me to stay in the boat no matter how hard I rock it. Good luck too you. There is nothing wrong with having a passion for what you are doing. Just don't let that passion cloud your basic need to get paid.
Click to expand...


EMB,
Thankyou for your opinion, however, you misunderstood my point. My reasoning behind my statement was that, if you love something with a passion and can contribute to a company, i.e. hospital or airline, then you should do it because it makes you happy. Working in a hospital gets somewhat depressing. It takes a lot of mental strength to be in healthcare today. With HMO's and higher up's telling you what type of care to deliver to your patients that you know sometimes is not in their best interest, but in the interest of the hospital's bottom line and makes you think; "why am I doing this?" Instead of taking care of patients, your attention turns to another piece of paperwork that was created by administration that needs to be filled out so that they can be reimbursed. I didn't go to college for six years to fill out forms!:mad:

Secondly, of course money is important, I won't belittle the pay at which pilots are paid. I think pilots are way underpaid, just like teachers, but the majority of pilots would agree with me when I say, this is a profession they love and that many people wish they could do. For me, it's a dream come true.

-fly safe
 
Bronx,


Your enthusiasm is certainly appreciated, but it'll take you a few years to get into this job to figure out if it's a dream come true. You never know whether the dream will turn into a nightmare :)

You are also extremely correct in that you should do this job because you like it, but I'll be honest with you; the reasons I got into this job, and the reasons I've stuck with this job have nothing to do with each other. I got into this gig thinking, "I just wanna fly!" and I've stayed with it because it has the opportunity to provide the lifestyle I want, the flexibility I need in a job and there is a potential pay out in the end.

I've found that flying airplanes professionally is 90% BS, and 10% flying the airplane. I'll fly the thing up through maybe FL180 and then back down from 5,000' right now, otherwise the autopilot is on. I'm looking to pickup a trip out of open time for my next block of reserve days and it includes no less than three 2 hour sits in Houston and it only pays 15 hours when you're gone away from base for 4 straight days.

Am I complaining? Not really, I'm the kind of guy that if I thought change was hopeless and if the job sucked too much I'd bail out like it was my job, but I WILL say your perspective starts to change quickly in this career. You can say to yourself all you want about how you'll make due and it'll be awesome, but when you're home less than 24 hours in one week to do your laundry and see your fiance, you start to change your opinions on what's acceptable fast :)
 
I know! The point I was getting at, though, was that there isn't a TON of time actually spent hand flying the beast.
 
True dat. I'm trying to go back through chapters in my systems manual right now. The first 6 months has flown by and I know if I don't start hacking on systems again here real soon recurrent is gonna kick my butt. If I can get through one chapter a trip I'll be in good shape to remember how most of the airplane is put together when my RPC comes up.
 
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