z987k
Well-Known Member
Which is one reason 141 schools suck.....all the fun out of flying.
does anyone here recommended atp flight school
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Calvin and Hobbs Meter
Well-Known Member
Before I get started, I finished ATP's program about 23 months ago, and I surf these forums, and write things like this because I care. If it wasn't for the people on this site I wouldn't have had nearly the quality of direction I had years ago. I started the ATP program without even taking a discovery flight, though I toured many different schools, and programs. I knew what I wanted to do with my life, and I was amendment about starting and finishing my training at one place. In my case, I prioritized getting my degree first (at a 4 year college), where all in-state high school grads are given a college education, under a scholarship that covers all but $1500 a semester. All this time I have been using my degree on the side to make a very small amount of extra cash, of which I do not otherwise mention from here on out.
I'd recommend ATP under certain conditions; the main one, being able to drop everything in your life until you finish the program. ATP may not be the right choice for most (because of loan issues, or training commitments), but it is the PERFECT choice for many. I'll always say on these threads, that you better know what you are getting yourself into. If you are taking on a full loan, get ready for the $700 a month repayment, while making almost nothing starting out. Don't get into a loan or training agreement without having a back up plan, and expecting the WORST! Because the worst will happen sooner or later, and maybe more than once. Personally, it seems to me, that ATP is best fit for adults who have very little to almost no commitments outside of flying. If you have a family that needs to be taken care of, or no money, I wouldn't recommend it unless you have a back up plan. There are other flight schools that will allow you to prioritize life better (personal opinion again). When attending ATP, ATP becomes priority number one, that's what makes the fast track program work. (Just a side note, ATP does offer self paced programs for people living nearby, which can make training less taxing, though it takes longer to get done, it allows you to prioritize other things if needed, such as work or family).
Realistically, (in my very strong opinion), those who finish ATP fast track should be considered "a jack of all trades, but an expert of none." I'd have to say (comparatively speaking with low total-time), most students stick and rudder skills, IFR, and multi-engine ops are exceptional for only flying for 5-6 months. It's all work and no play. Those who attend much slower paced, more expensive programs, such as Embry-Riddle, Spartans School of Aeronautics, or any college with a flight school attached, will inherently have a deeper knowledge base overall. This is purely based on TIME alone! The average ATP student is only there for a couple of months, compared to a 2, 3, or 4 year aviation school student. With that said, if you put an ATP grad (who has only been studying aviation for 5-6 months, **For practically 7 days a week, mind you**), up against one of these slower paced top notch schools who has been studying aviation the SAME amount of time (5-6months), the ATP student would blow them ALL out of the water. There's no comparison. Period.
For those who mention debt, remember, it doesn't matter what flight school you go to, unless you wait for YEARS to get your training done, your going to be in debt. With that said, the cost of going to ATP is 100% comparable to any other flight school that offers you the same ratings, and total time (structured for 100 hours of multi-pic), regardless of how long it would take. Compared to some, ATP's price is even better. No other flight school can offer you what ATP does, with such a high success rate, in such a small amount of time. I looked at other flight schools and training programs, before AND after I went to ATP, and NOTHING compares under their offerings, in my opinion. Additionally, ATP's training cost is fixed, once you sign the dotted line for training, that's that cost you pay. Try and get that at Spartan, for those of you familiar with that school, or any other school flight school. Sure you can do just about all of your training single engine at other schools, but the multi-training and experience is unbeatable IF you can afford it.
How many other flight schools out there can practically guarantee you will have a squawk free plane to go fly every day? Barley any, if at all (ATP will fly a plane to you last minute, if they have to, they have so many). As of 2010, the equipment can't be beat, (but that's coming from someone who only flew newer model Seminoles the whole time! So take that with a grain of salt, if you are so inclined). The structure can't be beat. The instructors are incredibly proficient for their purposes of getting you trough the course, and teaching you what you need to know. They care about you, and they can't be beat. They (the instructors) invest their every waking moment (and I mean every waking moment) making sure you are going to pass your check rides. Remember, WE ALL have to pass the written exam, the oral, and flight review for every rating we achieve! I had to take 8 check-rides in under 6 months! ATP must be doing something right. My only qualm with ATP is that it is so fast, there is hardly any time to soak anything in! That's what your signing up for when attending ATP though. Again, I had to pass those rides like everyone else. If you don't feel like you have more to learn after leaving ATP, something is wrong with you. You can't learn it all in such a small amount of time.
I was offered a job with ATP as an instructor after completing my training in 2010, and I worked my butt off to even get a chance to work there. I can tell you from experience, safety is number one with ATP corporate in Jacksonville, FL. In the end I didn't get the job, though I was signed off to instruct single engine for ATP, I did not finish initial standardization due to some personal priorities/issues I was having then. At that point in my life, working for ATP would have been tough (remember ATP becomes priority number one), I couldn't push it any longer and needed to slow down, for me. My brain was fried. Admin was nothing but kind to me, and my respect for them is high.
I drove back home and couldn't find a flying job after that, no flight schools would hire at that time, there just weren't enough students to go around. 2009 and 2010 were bad years. I moved cities, on a whim, for no reason whatsoever other than to try to strike a job in a different market area. I still couldn't get a job (even non-aviation related), even with a bachelors degree, the unemployment rate was so high! I finally landed a job delivering pizzas, to pay the bills (they weren't even hiring, but they hired me because no one in their right mind applies for a pizza delivery job with a bachelors degree, and comes dressed in dress slacks and a tie). A month or two later I FINALLY got a line crew job at an FBO at an international airport, making $9 an hour, receiving full time benefits. I instructed privately on the side, gave a proficiency check here and there, and flew a little on my own to keep current. I practically lived at the airport (and still do!), and always talked to any pilot or mechanic who would even look in my direction. I learned a lot, and studied every other day or so, trying to gain a better knowledge base. The FBO had a part 135 outfit that rented hangar space with us, and in about 7 months of working the line (again working my butt off), I had the privilege of giving the owner of the charter company a BFR. We found ourselves doing 4 hours of ground for that BFR. It was a blast. I learned from him, and he learned from me. Instructors and pilots should always be wanting to learn. The hard work paid off, a month or two later (still working the line), I was offered a right seat position, and a Citation sic-type rating for that company, with a full type agreement after one year. I was sent to school, and had no issues whatsoever. Not bad for being low time. When I finally qualify to get my ATP rating, I hope to have 4 times more total jet time than reciprocating time, and 9 times more multi-time than single. I'll also have learned so much by then, and will still be considered low time (1500 hours is nothing). Had I not had my CFI, CFII, and MEI, let alone received those ratings in less than 6 months, I would have never been hired. It's because of that, that the company felt they could get me trained and up to speed in the time needed. They wanted someone willing to learn, and excited to work hard. I'm not flying for free either, I'm being paid fairly. I have been truly blessed.
The overall training at ATP is first-rate (for what it is, a FAST paced program). It definitely has it's short comings (it's fast, and highly demanding). You don't enjoy it like you might if you were going slow; there's no time to look out the window. It's what you make of it that matters! I feel the strengths outweigh the pitfalls most anyone here mentions (other than monetary issues), including myself. Though I did feel like I missed / overlooked a critical idea or two during my training, it was nothing drastic, and I know others who have felt the same attending different schools. Some instructors stress different areas or techniques, and that goes for anywhere you train. If you can make it through ATP's course, you should be more than capable of being brought on with a flight company as a new hire. Get ready to sacrifice if you want to make something of this profession; I know I'll have to again someday.
Like 'A Life Aloft' said in the thread link posted earlier, "You have time when you are young, enjoy the experience, enjoy the view, enjoy what you are learning, enjoy every plane type that you will fly and know that plane like you know yourself. There is no real fast track to anything in life and that includes flying."
I'd recommend ATP under certain conditions; the main one, being able to drop everything in your life until you finish the program. ATP may not be the right choice for most (because of loan issues, or training commitments), but it is the PERFECT choice for many. I'll always say on these threads, that you better know what you are getting yourself into. If you are taking on a full loan, get ready for the $700 a month repayment, while making almost nothing starting out. Don't get into a loan or training agreement without having a back up plan, and expecting the WORST! Because the worst will happen sooner or later, and maybe more than once. Personally, it seems to me, that ATP is best fit for adults who have very little to almost no commitments outside of flying. If you have a family that needs to be taken care of, or no money, I wouldn't recommend it unless you have a back up plan. There are other flight schools that will allow you to prioritize life better (personal opinion again). When attending ATP, ATP becomes priority number one, that's what makes the fast track program work. (Just a side note, ATP does offer self paced programs for people living nearby, which can make training less taxing, though it takes longer to get done, it allows you to prioritize other things if needed, such as work or family).
Realistically, (in my very strong opinion), those who finish ATP fast track should be considered "a jack of all trades, but an expert of none." I'd have to say (comparatively speaking with low total-time), most students stick and rudder skills, IFR, and multi-engine ops are exceptional for only flying for 5-6 months. It's all work and no play. Those who attend much slower paced, more expensive programs, such as Embry-Riddle, Spartans School of Aeronautics, or any college with a flight school attached, will inherently have a deeper knowledge base overall. This is purely based on TIME alone! The average ATP student is only there for a couple of months, compared to a 2, 3, or 4 year aviation school student. With that said, if you put an ATP grad (who has only been studying aviation for 5-6 months, **For practically 7 days a week, mind you**), up against one of these slower paced top notch schools who has been studying aviation the SAME amount of time (5-6months), the ATP student would blow them ALL out of the water. There's no comparison. Period.
For those who mention debt, remember, it doesn't matter what flight school you go to, unless you wait for YEARS to get your training done, your going to be in debt. With that said, the cost of going to ATP is 100% comparable to any other flight school that offers you the same ratings, and total time (structured for 100 hours of multi-pic), regardless of how long it would take. Compared to some, ATP's price is even better. No other flight school can offer you what ATP does, with such a high success rate, in such a small amount of time. I looked at other flight schools and training programs, before AND after I went to ATP, and NOTHING compares under their offerings, in my opinion. Additionally, ATP's training cost is fixed, once you sign the dotted line for training, that's that cost you pay. Try and get that at Spartan, for those of you familiar with that school, or any other school flight school. Sure you can do just about all of your training single engine at other schools, but the multi-training and experience is unbeatable IF you can afford it.
How many other flight schools out there can practically guarantee you will have a squawk free plane to go fly every day? Barley any, if at all (ATP will fly a plane to you last minute, if they have to, they have so many). As of 2010, the equipment can't be beat, (but that's coming from someone who only flew newer model Seminoles the whole time! So take that with a grain of salt, if you are so inclined). The structure can't be beat. The instructors are incredibly proficient for their purposes of getting you trough the course, and teaching you what you need to know. They care about you, and they can't be beat. They (the instructors) invest their every waking moment (and I mean every waking moment) making sure you are going to pass your check rides. Remember, WE ALL have to pass the written exam, the oral, and flight review for every rating we achieve! I had to take 8 check-rides in under 6 months! ATP must be doing something right. My only qualm with ATP is that it is so fast, there is hardly any time to soak anything in! That's what your signing up for when attending ATP though. Again, I had to pass those rides like everyone else. If you don't feel like you have more to learn after leaving ATP, something is wrong with you. You can't learn it all in such a small amount of time.
I was offered a job with ATP as an instructor after completing my training in 2010, and I worked my butt off to even get a chance to work there. I can tell you from experience, safety is number one with ATP corporate in Jacksonville, FL. In the end I didn't get the job, though I was signed off to instruct single engine for ATP, I did not finish initial standardization due to some personal priorities/issues I was having then. At that point in my life, working for ATP would have been tough (remember ATP becomes priority number one), I couldn't push it any longer and needed to slow down, for me. My brain was fried. Admin was nothing but kind to me, and my respect for them is high.
I drove back home and couldn't find a flying job after that, no flight schools would hire at that time, there just weren't enough students to go around. 2009 and 2010 were bad years. I moved cities, on a whim, for no reason whatsoever other than to try to strike a job in a different market area. I still couldn't get a job (even non-aviation related), even with a bachelors degree, the unemployment rate was so high! I finally landed a job delivering pizzas, to pay the bills (they weren't even hiring, but they hired me because no one in their right mind applies for a pizza delivery job with a bachelors degree, and comes dressed in dress slacks and a tie). A month or two later I FINALLY got a line crew job at an FBO at an international airport, making $9 an hour, receiving full time benefits. I instructed privately on the side, gave a proficiency check here and there, and flew a little on my own to keep current. I practically lived at the airport (and still do!), and always talked to any pilot or mechanic who would even look in my direction. I learned a lot, and studied every other day or so, trying to gain a better knowledge base. The FBO had a part 135 outfit that rented hangar space with us, and in about 7 months of working the line (again working my butt off), I had the privilege of giving the owner of the charter company a BFR. We found ourselves doing 4 hours of ground for that BFR. It was a blast. I learned from him, and he learned from me. Instructors and pilots should always be wanting to learn. The hard work paid off, a month or two later (still working the line), I was offered a right seat position, and a Citation sic-type rating for that company, with a full type agreement after one year. I was sent to school, and had no issues whatsoever. Not bad for being low time. When I finally qualify to get my ATP rating, I hope to have 4 times more total jet time than reciprocating time, and 9 times more multi-time than single. I'll also have learned so much by then, and will still be considered low time (1500 hours is nothing). Had I not had my CFI, CFII, and MEI, let alone received those ratings in less than 6 months, I would have never been hired. It's because of that, that the company felt they could get me trained and up to speed in the time needed. They wanted someone willing to learn, and excited to work hard. I'm not flying for free either, I'm being paid fairly. I have been truly blessed.
The overall training at ATP is first-rate (for what it is, a FAST paced program). It definitely has it's short comings (it's fast, and highly demanding). You don't enjoy it like you might if you were going slow; there's no time to look out the window. It's what you make of it that matters! I feel the strengths outweigh the pitfalls most anyone here mentions (other than monetary issues), including myself. Though I did feel like I missed / overlooked a critical idea or two during my training, it was nothing drastic, and I know others who have felt the same attending different schools. Some instructors stress different areas or techniques, and that goes for anywhere you train. If you can make it through ATP's course, you should be more than capable of being brought on with a flight company as a new hire. Get ready to sacrifice if you want to make something of this profession; I know I'll have to again someday.
Like 'A Life Aloft' said in the thread link posted earlier, "You have time when you are young, enjoy the experience, enjoy the view, enjoy what you are learning, enjoy every plane type that you will fly and know that plane like you know yourself. There is no real fast track to anything in life and that includes flying."
bkey79
Well-Known Member
Really if you do the math, its actually is pretty good... Private 0-85 hrs costs $9995, which works out to $115.82/hr dual, which most the 172's are either S or R models.. There are a few "M's" running around. I finished the program with 115 hrs multi , 110 hrs single and 50hrs SIM. Roughly the average I paid for flight time, not including paying for any sim, was $262/hr wet dual... And that got me everything from private to MEI / CFI / CFII.. Plus if there ever was any issue with any plane, it was resolved with 1 phone call. As an instructor for ATP, I can say that safety and maintenance are a very high priority with ATP.
You are and have been use-less with every topic regarding ATP. You have been proved wrong on many occasions by multiple people on multiple threads. You never had anything usefull to say, and every topic you try to bring up always is something you heard from a friend of a friend. I have asked you before to either post up what you have heard either on a thread or by PM'ing me, neither of which have happened. Do yourself a favor and just stop...
Bud01
Welcome to the Jungle.
Yes the whole thing with ATP is the dedication you put in is what you get out of the program. I did there self pace program in Raleigh. I did a monday-friday schedule and took the weekends off to relax and study. I still finished the program in under 5 months. They give you 14 months to finish the program.
Calvin and Hobbs Meter
Well-Known Member
Nigel, If I were you I would write my questions down, then call ATP and get the answers directly from them. No one can give you a better answer. You have the option to go tour a training location, take a discovery flight, and so on. If people like 'Pachong' really wanted to help, they would be voicing their experiences to the whole community. There are many web surfers who view these forums and don't sign up, or ask questions. Telling horror stories (just a guess) on a private basis helps very little overall. Moreover, some people might even agree with Pachong (including myself), but we will never know.
That being said, yes you do have to make multiple lump sum payments. One example is paying the $9,995 before you start your private pilot training. If you decide to stop training for some reason, your money is refunded to you; but you sign a contract agreeing that by not completing the training, you are subjected to a higher hourly "rental" rate for the hours you DID fly. Not to mention the fact that course materials are also sent to you before you began flying, of which you pay for, so you wouldn't see your money back for those kinds of things either. The people who have cautioned you against paying a lump sum are not entirely wrong either, being that many "mom and pop" flight schools have been known to milk students of their money, and then demand more money before your training is even complete. I personally know multiple people who have been milked from their flight school like this (and it's a well known place where I am now living), within the last year and a half, and had to leave. Conversely, ATP's training costs are fixed, and you have a contractual agreement before training begins, so it's not an issue. I was a big fan of the fixed cost, especially because I started training in the winter, and I knew fuel prices would undoubtedly rise in the summer.
Having more than 85 hours is not an issue if that's what you are asking. From what I remember, you cannot start the program already being a private pilot without also having the 85 hours. The reason being, every hour you fly is strictly scheduled (structured) from that point on. This ensures you get to each milestone (for example the 250 hours you need to become a commercial pilot) without taking an extra flight, or wasting any time. It also keeps you going at the same speed as other students who start the program the same time as you, so that when the time comes, you can be paired up (with another student) to do your cross countries in the Seminole. You literally get a training itinerary showing what you will do every single day, how much you will fly, and what will be covered. This itinerary is based on you having 85 hours or more, or else you will be short hours by the end of the training schedule.
You can build time up to the 85 hours in ATP's airplanes if you decide to get your private pilot certificate somewhere else, if that interests you. It would allow you to become familiar with ATP checklists and procedures before you being in the next step of the program. If you can find a way to save $$, DO IT.
I can't remember if ATP's advertised cost of the private pilot course includes the 85 hours (I think it does). If it does, the cost can't be beat, considering you would be flying a 172, you couldn't get a better price anywhere. Absolutely. I don't remember though, it's been 2 years.
This is why you should call.
Calvin and Hobbs Meter
Well-Known Member
Equally capable, as in a 152. Yeah, totally. I did mention you couldn't get a much better price in a 172. That is, if the price covers 85 hours total, like I said...
Where I'm living you can't really get a better rate.
I also said, if you can save money, DO IT. I'm not saying go to ATP, give them all your money. I'm just spelling out as much as I can about the program. The cost of the program has gone up from the time I was there, and will continue to do so as the market demand increases.
If you ARE getting 85 hours for $9,995, that's $117 an hour, fixed. Including ground school (two actually, one online, one with an instructor), your written exam, and books. That's a good price. I also never said the total price of the program was fair, just the private pilot cost. Where I'm living you can't really get a better rate. Even in my earlier post above I mention, it's hard to get what ATP OFFERS for a better price. But, that's not saying you can't get all the same ratings for less money elsewhere. The money you pay for going to ATP is purely based on getting the ratings as expeditiously as possible. That comes at a price.
I don't work at ATP, and I don't speak to anyone who does. I'm just doing my biannual, "lets see what's going on in the ATP forums on Jetcareers," before I take another internet hiatus for a couple months.
Calvin and Hobbs Meter
Well-Known Member
So there you have it. I don't know how I missed that part of the post. Though, it actually comes out to a little over $117 an hour if you divide 9995 by 85. Around here, schools charge $1,000 for 30 hours of ground. Which would than bring the hourly rate down to about $106 an hour, for a newer model 172. Fixed cost. I can't rent a 172 for that price, let alone get flight instruction in one.
bkey79
Well-Known Member
I took out $150 of the $9995, your private pilot test is included in the total price..
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
If you are concerned with price, I honestly do not think ATP is your best bet. Not that the 100-150 hours of multi time isn't helpful, it is. However, it is possible to get your ratings for cheaper, with limited multi time and still be hired by an airline, many people have done it. Also, in the future you are going to need far more than the 190 hours to get hired by an airline, 1500 + 21 years old.
That said, ATP is not trying to be the cheapest, they are trying to be the most efficient. You can do a mom and pop shop, and possibly get through your ratings in 90 days, but you won't have the support of the ATP system, the structure and the experience of training students to be proficient in that short of a time. You won't have as much or any multi time, but you will have money in your pocket, or at least not as large of a loan. You can go to ERAU, come away with a degree, more in depth knowledge of many facets of aviation not just flying, all your ratings, most likely more debt, but it will take you 4 years.
ATP can get you through your ratings in a standardized fashion. You'll be proficient and have the opportunity to work for them. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive. It is for people who want to go to the airlines.
If you want varied experiences, ability to take your friends and family up for "because I can" flights or you want to land on a grass strip or to an off the beaten path airport, than an FBO might be your best bet.
That said, ATP is not trying to be the cheapest, they are trying to be the most efficient. You can do a mom and pop shop, and possibly get through your ratings in 90 days, but you won't have the support of the ATP system, the structure and the experience of training students to be proficient in that short of a time. You won't have as much or any multi time, but you will have money in your pocket, or at least not as large of a loan. You can go to ERAU, come away with a degree, more in depth knowledge of many facets of aviation not just flying, all your ratings, most likely more debt, but it will take you 4 years.
ATP can get you through your ratings in a standardized fashion. You'll be proficient and have the opportunity to work for them. Not the cheapest, not the most expensive. It is for people who want to go to the airlines.
If you want varied experiences, ability to take your friends and family up for "because I can" flights or you want to land on a grass strip or to an off the beaten path airport, than an FBO might be your best bet.
r311music
Well-Known Member
I'd love to know where I can get my ratings any cheaper. Here in MCO, even the few "mom and pop" operations are still charging just above 100/hr for a 172, or 90/hr for a 152(if it's down down for mtx), plus another 45-60/hr for the instructor. We can all agree that is probably a more fun experience doing it outside of a 141 environment, but it's getting harder and harder to find a "cheap" flight training option. Hence why I'm still tossing bags and looking into getting other fields within aviation...
stay away from it far away. I am currently working on my commercial inital and my comm single and will not be continueing with the school from there on. I have been with the school for 3 yrs and just now getting my comm. being self paced you are put on the back burner and not given the attention that I deservered. Just the other day I asked about 6 other students while we were having a study session if any of them would recommend it to anyone else. Its a bad situation when all of the students said they would not and knowing what they know now wouldn't go back through the program again themselves..
Matt13C
Well-Known Member
Well, just using the rates you quoted it is far cheaper than ATP.
ATP=60,000 for 270hrs with say 115 multi.
61= 100 hours in the 150 (PPL and XC building) 9,000 + 40hrs of instruction @$45= $1800 total $10,800
130 hours in 172 = $13,000 + 40 hours instructor for IFR (high side)@ $60 $2400 = $15,400
20 hours in a complex @ $180(estimate) + 10 hours with instructor @ $60 = 4200
Total = $30,400 PPL, IFR, CSEL
Find a local school to your CMEL. Even if it is high $250hr + $60 instructor for 20 hours thats only $6200.
SO with all ratings and tests you're at $40k. You still have $20k for your CFI's. If you go to ATP you can do the CFI program and knock them all out in 2 weeks for 6500.You're still 13,500 cheaper. Sure you can do it cheaper part 61 also.
These prices are based on doing the 0-hero program, and assuming you live where the program is offered. If not you need to add $4k for housing. If you didnt do the fast track you'd need to add an additional 5k. The savings of 61 are substantial at the rates you posted are equivalent to first year pay at a regional. Would be nice having that in your pocket, or not owed to a bank each month.
There are also benefits of ATP, you cant just factor in price. But If you are already well on your way I dont see the benefit of switching. Also, regionals are not hiring fresh comms off the street, there are still pilots on furlough and you need to build time to 1500 to sit right seat. So what is the rush?
Just my .02.
Guidetothesky
Well-Known Member
Three years to finish the program. You have to be kidding. Come on, what is the rest of the story. Something does not add up. And for 6 other students to not recommend the school. Now you are just making stuff up.
Pfly
Well-Known Member
If you've been here for three years you're not living up to your end of the bargain by committing 10 days monthly to training. Something else is up here.
ckthepilot
Well-Known Member
Maybe the guy is trying to get a 4-year degree from ATP?
sp238882
Hey-ooooo
ATP is hit or miss, some people like, it, others hate it. There are what 10-20 locations? I think the experiences vary by location. Some get guys like I did, with loads of experience who are really good teachers, others get fresh CFI kids who were taught by then fresh cfis, who themselves learned from an ATP educated cfi, etc etc, and don't have the real knowledge outside of the ATP folders given to them. Do your research, go where you think your money gets the best bang for your buck and demand that you get your money's worth. But remember, there is a reason MOST people with experience say to pay as you go, I know sitting with a hefty loan (refinanced even) I wish I listened.
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