Dodging WX...

[killbilly]

I keep hearing that as a 135 freight dawg (love the ring of that) you do a lot of single-pilot IFR, at night, dodging weather.

Yet I'm also told that not all the aircraft have weather radar.

So at the risk of asking a really dumb question...

How are you able to dodge weather you can't see? I know you can get weather forecasts (which aren't always accurate) and loads of stuff from ATC, but I imagine the accuracy of that is less than what you need in-flight.

Then again, I'm not a pilot yet so I don't know. Thus the question.

off to ask silly questions in the CFI corner now...

 

[frog_flyer]

You see, usually in "storm clouds" there are flashes of light, called lightning. You see those flashes of light, and avoid them

I've been reading and FI thread in the cargo section thats just hilarious.

Center: "Freightdawg2345646, Hows the ride up there?"
Freightdaw465467: "not too bad"
then center re-routes all pax traffic! lol

Another motto i heard there: "dont deviate, penetrate!"

lord have mercy

 

[surreal1221]

You spend 1600 bucks on AnywhereMap and WX.

 

[killbilly]

You see, usually in "storm clouds" there are flashes of light, called lightning. You see those flashes of light, and avoid them

I know, I know...I was thinking this same thing, but there's a whole lot about weather I don't know yet. I guess what I was more concerned with was when you're trying to get somewhere and all you see are those flashes of light, or that the gaps are too small for you to get through.

Do you just call ATC and ask them to steer you around or what?

 

[EDUC8-or]

When I flew PAX in pistons down in FL I would try to stay out of the clouds, once you're in it's too late. Now doing that at night is a totally different story.

I will say penetrating a storm at 150 knots indicated isn't quite as violent as 300 knots indicated. Plus, the boxes won't complain!

 

[SteveC]

The rule is not to fly in IMC near convective weather (i.e. thunderstorms) if you do not have avoidance equipment on board. If you don't have radar or stormscope you need to stay visual to avoid the bad stuff. Often if you're in an unpressurised piston aircraft the best plan is to be flying below the bases so you can visually avoid the areas of lightning and heavy rain shafts. Do not fly IMC and assume that you can stay out of trouble by watching for the flashes of lighting - you have a good chance of getting suckered into some bad, bad juju.

Penetration speed doesn't matter. 300 knots or 120 knots, do not penetrate thunderstorms. We (aviation) lost one of our best a few months back in a C210 in a thunderstorm. The man was one of the pioneers in supersonic flight, one of the best test pilots ever, and a very experienced pilot. Thunderstorms don't care about your experience level or how often you have "penetrated" a cell in the past and only had moderate turbulence, if you pick the wrong one it will chew you up and spit you out in pieces.

Do not trust ATC to keep you out of convective weather. Some of their (older) equipment does not depict weather very well and you do not know from one controller to the next how accurate their view of weather. Many (most?) controllers will do their best to help point out what they think is heavy weather, but it is not in their job description - their job is to keep you from hitting the ground or other aircraft. Everything else is a bonus and *time and workload permitting*. Don't bet your life on ATC's guidance. One big trap that I see is that ATC does offer guidance on a regular basis, and there is a huge difference in what one controller will call out (level one/two) and another's threshold. If you get complacent because you have often flown through a "cell" and only experienced light rain and a smooth ride, the next controllor pointing out a level five TS and using the same terminology can lull you into doing something dangerous.

The next level of danger is when you move up to piston planes that do have radar. The problem is that the small dishes that are used in the nose of a C310 or Baron or in the pod on a C210 do a pretty crappy job of painting weather and they have some limitations. Do yourself a favor and learn about those limitations (attenuation is a term you should learn very, very well) so you don't get suckered into something that you didn't know was there. There are some good courses out there on airborne radar and well worth the time and expense, even if you have to pay for them yourself.

Weather is insidious. Nineteen times out of twenty you can mess around convective weather and get away with nothing more than a bumpy ride. The twentieth time, when you are complacent, can kill you.

Flying single pilot IFR, at night, can teach you more about flying in and around weather than any other kind of flying. It can be done safely, but the key is to always be smart, always have a sure way out, and don't let the braggadocio and "tough guy" attitude take you over the edge. Respect mother nature and remember, those boxes in the back ain't worth dying over. The world won't end if those "next day" packages are late, but the world might just end for you if they never get delivered.

 

[Hootie]

At my company our Chieftans dont have radar and we fly alot in the mountains where atc cant always pick us up, our ops manual says to stay 20nm away from any thunderstorm, yet your expected to be on time. You can usually stay low and avoid the more concentrated areas of lighting (because you will surely get questioned if your plane gets damaged from lightning). It can get really confusing at night when there is lots of weather and lightning around. Best advice is go with an operator who understands this and equips your plane (wx radar or even a stormscope) for the job.

 

[killbilly]

Best advice is go with an operator who understands this and equips your plane (wx radar or even a stormscope) for the job.

Would it be safe to say that you can use wx radar-equipped aircraft as sort of a benchmark for whom you would fly for and not fly for? Rather - does anyone do that?

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Would it be safe to say that you can use wx radar-equipped aircraft as sort of a benchmark for whom you would fly for and not fly for? Rather - does anyone do that?

He11 no. That would be silly.

You can safely fly single pilot IFR, at night, in IMC, if you know what you're doing. It's done thousands of times daily.

I think that we lose more pilots to landing accidents every year, than thunderstorms. You don't hear anybody saying that landing on runways is the end of the world.

 

[clumpinglitter]

Do not trust ATC to keep you out of convective weather. Some of their (older) equipment does not depict weather very well and you do not know from one controller to the next how accurate their view of weather. Many (most?) controllers will do their best to help point out what they think is heavy weather, but it is not in their job description - their job is to keep you from hitting the ground or other aircraft. Everything else is a bonus and *time and workload permitting*. Don't bet your life on ATC's guidance. One big trap that I see is that ATC does offer guidance on a regular basis, and there is a huge difference in what one controller will call out (level one/two) and another's threshold. If you get complacent because you have often flown through a "cell" and only experienced light rain and a smooth ride, the next controllor pointing out a level five TS and using the same terminology can lull you into doing something dangerous.

Is this true for Flight Watch, too? I know their wx information is better than ATC's, but does the interpretation vary as much between weather briefers as it does between center controllers??

-C.

 

[SteveC]

Is this true for Flight Watch, too? I know their wx information is better than ATC's, but does the interpretation vary as much between weather briefers as it does between center controllers??

-C.

I don't really know the answer to your specific questions, but I will say that I would use Flight Watch for "big picture" planning and not minute-by-minute decision making. While they might have a better radar picture than ATC, I would still not trust it for doing something like picking a route between fast moving/growing thunderstorm cells located 30 miles apart unless I could back up what they are saying with what I can see with my own eyes (visual conditions, not inside the clouds). Their information is better suited, in my opinion, for deciding which way to go around a line of storms, or maybe deciding to land somewhere short of the line and wait for it to go overhead. In other words, 50 mile decisions, not 5 mile decisions. That make sense?

 

[Looking4Lower]

Is this true for Flight Watch, too? I know their wx information is better than ATC's, but does the interpretation vary as much between weather briefers as it does between center controllers??

-C.

A couple years ago I was killing time at an airport that had an FSS on the field. We went inside and got a brief tour of the operation. The briefers actually have (among other things) a modified WSI weather computer console in front of them, with the same detailed color radar that you see on any FBO WSI. Pretty nice, I thought.

Just FWIW, not sure if it has changed since then. If anybody ever gets the chance to drop into an FSS, it's worth the time to check it out.

 

[clumpinglitter]

I don't really know the answer to your specific questions, but I will say that I would use Flight Watch for "big picture" planning and not minute-by-minute decision making. While they might have a better radar picture than ATC, I would still not trust it for doing something like picking a route between fast moving/growing thunderstorm cells located 30 miles apart unless I could back up what they are saying with what I can see with my own eyes (visual conditions, not inside the clouds). Their information is better suited, in my opinion, for deciding which way to go around a line of storms, or maybe deciding to land somewhere short of the line and wait for it to go overhead. In other words, 50 mile decisions, not 5 mile decisions. That make sense?

Yeah. I've been told that you can't let your weather decisions be made by someone else, and that includes relying on ATC or Flight Watch to tell you where the cells are. I was also wondering if that's how it's done in real life, however, especially in non-airline operations.

I still don't get how you can avoid thunderstorms at night, even with experience, if you don't have radar, don't rely on ATC/FSS, and it's dark outside. And what if the storms are embedded? I can only guess that you have to know ahead of time where it looks safe to go, how fast and where they're popping up, and have a plan for alternates along the route if it gets bad. Anyway, just thinking out loud ... this is an interesting discussion.

-C.

 

[falconvalley]

When it's your job for the first time, everyone has the same questions. You've been taught to avoid the stuff, now what? Well, now it's your job and they don't care what you see on the radar. I guess you get the hang of it with experience. Use all your resources to get the "big picture". Flying around T-storms is exactly that, flying around T-storms. If you can't see it, you might not fly around it! I guess we feel we're doing something wrong by flying at night, when every county in the midwest is under a tornado warning, because we got the impression that it's dangerous. And in a way it is dangerous. It might be dangerous for a student pilot or a 200 hour private pilot that's only flown 10 hours a year, only day flying. But, when you do it every night, things change. You start to get better at making things happen (hopefully legally).

 

[killbilly]

When it's your job for the first time, everyone has the same questions. You've been taught to avoid the stuff, now what? Well, now it's your job and they don't care what you see on the radar. I guess you get the hang of it with experience. Use all your resources to get the "big picture". Flying around T-storms is exactly that, flying around T-storms. If you can't see it, you might not fly around it! I guess we feel we're doing something wrong be flying at night, when every county in the midwest is under a tornado warning, because we got the impression that it's dangerous. And in a way it is dangerous. It might be dangerous for a student pilot or a 200 hour private pilot that's only flown 10 hours a year, only day flying. But, when you do it every night, things change. You start to get better at making things happen (hopefully legally).

This is an excellent answer, and it raises, in my book, the most profound question about the whole thing. Yet I feel I might already know the answer...

When you first start out having to dodge weather at night, and you can't see what's out there to avoid it and you're an "inexperienced" pilot in this scenario, what do you do? Everyone tells me that it can be done safely...with experience. But no one is born with this knowledge.

So how are these guys who are safely flying in scenarios that scare the bejeezus out of rookies getting to be those guys? Am I making sense? Is it just good planning and decisionmaking? How do you handle fear when you realize you might have just gotten in a nasty storm situation?

I know I might be asking the wrong questions here - I'm having to extrapolate based on a lack of experience - so what I'm wondering about might not be...applicable.

I'm just fascinated by the idea that one man pilots a small craft in IMC among natural forces that would cavalierly double-click the 'smite' icon on the cosmic desktop and wipe him out if he does something...wrong. He starts out inexperienced, but he gets experienced, alive, in most cases. How?

 

[clumpinglitter]

So how are these guys who are safely flying in scenarios that scare the bejeezus out of rookies getting to be those guys?

I think this is what people mean when they say that if you fly freight, one of two things will happen: you'll either scare the crap out of yourself, or you'll end up dead.

-C.

 

[CaptChris]

I fly a Seneca II with no Wx on it whatsoever. Most of my legs are about 1 hour long, so not terribly long. Basic rules:
1. Don't takeoff in the face of a thunderstorm.
2. Don't land in the face of a thunderstorm.

Let ATC help out. In most cases freight runs fly the same route everyday. The controllers know us, we know the controllers. They know we don't have weather radar, we know that they will do their best to help us out. See and avoid. Most thunderstorms at night you can see lightning ahead. Ask for the general direction of movement (i.e. beginning at 11 oclock ending at 2 oclock moving from 270 at 25kts) and then look at your HSI. Based on what you see out the window guesstimate what deviation will allow you to pass on the backside of it. In the example above, if you're heading 360 and the storm is 11 oclock to 2 oclock moving due east, you may ask for 10-15 degrees left (assuming you're about 20 miles away). By the time you're even close to it you're watching a hell of a light show out the right side of the airplane. I've always got approval when asking to deviate for Wx.

Another thing... LISTEN UP! Other aircraft on your route of flight, or on the same arrival or on approach will often times report Wx, ask to deviate, something along those lines. Let their actions influence your decisions. 135 freight is an awesome experience. It ought to be required for any job out there--I'm 20 times the pilot I was six months ago and I bet every freight dog on this board would say the same.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

I think this is what people mean when they say that if you fly freight, one of two things will happen: you'll either scare the crap out of yourself, or you'll end up dead. -C.

No, not at all. If you scare the crap out of yourself, then you should probably re-evaluate what you're doing for a living.

When you first start out having to dodge weather at night, and you can't see what's out there to avoid it and you're an "inexperienced" pilot in this scenario, what do you do? Everyone tells me that it can be done safely...with experience. But no one is born with this knowledge.

No, you're not born with it. However, by the time you reach IFR Part 135 minimums, you SHOULD have that experience. You should know how to deviate around weather. You should know what ice looks like on an airplane, and what windshear does on final. You should certainly know how to use EFAS, FSS, ATC, and anything else available, to paint a very clear picture of the weather - without the weather radar!!

Does weather radar help? Sure it does. However, it has it's own limitations too. I'd definately rather have it than not, but I take what I can get.

Yeah. I've been told that you can't let your weather decisions be made by someone else, and that includes relying on ATC or Flight Watch to tell you where the cells are.

There's a difference between letting somebody else make your decisions, and listening to third parties with regards to weather.

EFAS and ATC are there for YOU. Use them, but also understand what their limitations are. If EFAS tells you that they're painting a line of weather at your 12 o'clock, and other aircraft are confirming that with their radar, and ATC is also seeing precip on their scope . . . guess what: Weather. If ATC is saying it's clear, but other aircraft are deviating, then you should be able to get a picture from that as well. Every single situation is completely different. However, by the time you're doing this, you're NOT a brand-new pilot. You've most likely been doing this for some years, and you're actually gone out and flown in weather!

I still don't get how you can avoid thunderstorms at night, even with experience, if you don't have radar, don't rely on ATC/FSS, and it's dark outside.

Not possible. At some point, you have to use the resources available to you.

And what if the storms are embedded? I can only guess that you have to know ahead of time where it looks safe to go, how fast and where they're popping up, and have a plan for alternates along the route if it gets bad.

Again, this is where that 1200 hours of experience comes in! Embedded thunderstorms are bad ju-ju!!

Let ATC help out. In most cases freight runs fly the same route everyday. The controllers know us, we know the controllers. They know we don't have weather radar, we know that they will do their best to help us out.

Precisely. They'll usually go out of their way to hook us up.

Most thunderstorms at night you can see lightning ahead.

Yep. Use that lightning, and give that storm plenty of room.

This morning was a perfect example. Coming into MKC< it was nasty. Extreme weather everywhere, and I was pretty much hard IMC. Lot's of turbulence, rain, and I'm doing my best to stay clear. About 10 miles before my hand-off to approach, I called EFAS and got a good picture of what they were seeing on their radar. After my hand-off, I got updated by Approach. The field and the final was covered by extreme precip, winds gusting to 38 knots across the runway. I pretty much held for an hour (more of a box pattern). I listened to other folks, and made sure that ATC didn't forget about me. I gave the controller continuous updates of my flight conditions, so that he could help other pilots out. Also, he could tell that when I started reporting continuous moderate with occasional severe, I was getting to close for my own comfort.

So, at one point, I hit some severe and caught an updraft that climbed me 900 feet in about 20 seconds. I told the controller that I needed to climb NOW. It wasn't a question, and I didn't ask. I also knew that I was in trail of an MU-2 at 6000, and I asked how his ride was. He had just made a turn, and it was smooth where he was at 6000. So, I wanted that.

The point? It was getting too rought for me, and I let the controller know what I needed to do. In a busy terminal area, they may forget about you for a few seconds, and that few seconds may get you into trouble.

Also, remember to be patient.I fought the weather, dodged storms, shot an ILS to mins, with a hefty crosswind, and got on the ground.

I unloaded with my sunglasses on, in the clear.

See my point?

 

[Adam2006]

Thanks freight dogs for sharing your experiences.

 

[WestIndian425]

You see, usually in "storm clouds" there are flashes of light, called lightning. You see those flashes of light, and avoid them

I've been reading and FI thread in the cargo section thats just hilarious.

Center: "Freightdawg2345646, Hows the ride up there?"
Freightdaw465467: "not too bad"
then center re-routes all pax traffic! lol

Another motto i heard there: "dont deviate, penetrate!"

lord have mercy

ROFLOL!!

Neil