Do they?

[ QUOTE ]
It's time to take Mesa seriously. The pilot group is expected to top 3500 this year, making it the largest regional airline and certainly gaining on the majors. Any company flying 650 jets is going to have a large say on the market.

Whatever you say about Jonathan Ornstein - you can't say he isn't a successful businessman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it is time to take Mesa seriously. It's time to seriously notice the fact that the CEO of the airline has managed to whipsaw a pilot group and ALPA using Freedom Airlines to undercut the negotiations, therefore causing the pilots to sign a substandard contract to keep their jobs.

Successful businessman? Maybe. But where is the line between business and slapping your employees? I saw it straight from JO's mouth: Employees come last at Mesa Airlines, behind customers and shareholders.
 
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John, any airline flying any equipment at a sub-standard rate is a detriment to us all. No matter if they've got 20 pilots or they've got 15,000 pilots.

Pilots will lovingly undercut rates "just to get the equipment on property". I can't tell you how many times I've heard "just get the aircraft on property and then we can work on bringing up the rates".

No one's trying to denigrate Mesa so don't take it personal, lets leave that to flightinfo and mesalounge. But there's absolutely no way in the world that I'm going to twist logic to justify a carrier obtaining substandard rates in order to get a particular aircraft on property.

Besides Midway was proof that even if you undercut SWA's rates, you need a lot more than cheap labor to run an airline.

Yes, I'm a pilot and I like airplanes like the next guy, but I'm a professional pilot first, and then a "wow, cool neat"-airplane guy last.

Little thing called a mortgage...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is right on. Well said Doug.
 
Why I feel the way I feel:

Chicaga: from the old "Bartles and James" commercial: 'Thank you for your support!"

Allow me to tell a real quick story before I run out and do some errands.

When I was a Skyway pilot, there was lots of talk about acquiring EMB-145's but then the company had some grumblings of taking possession of the fleet of Midwest Express DC-9-10's. You know, the 'baby-9's' with a hard wing and configured for like 64 people in a 2x2 single class config.

Lots, and I mean LOTS of guys were thrilled because they could get some DC-9 time and then go onto Northwest or a bigger and better carrier after picking up some "real airplane" time. Woo hoo, it's the big time boys, let's get 'em build some time and we'll be United 747 FO's in no time at all.

I was one of out of maybe 80% of the pissed pilots mad that the company would even suggest getting some of the Midwest Express "Baby-9's" because I would have loved to fly them, but I wanted to fly them for Midwest Express under a Midwest Express pilot contract for Midwest Express pay rates.

The company, purportedly, planned to have us Skyway pilots operate them at a far reduced rate than they paid Midwest Express pilots (already a low rate).

Heck, I wasn't even supportive when we were negotiating RJ rates at Skyway because I thought it meant the death-knell for guys wanting to move up from Skyway to Midwest Express. People don't realize that pay rates are only a small part of the picture when it comes to airline flying and there was no way in hell I wanted to fly a jet at Skyway rates under a Skyway pilot contract.

Some people thought I was nuts, but the prospects of transforming a well-paying, good benefit job at Midwest Express into a time-building, low-rates-just-to-get-'em-on-campus style operation was something I had no interest in. Primarily because you never know if that time-building job you're toiling away in might be the ultimate destination in your career.

But that's just my opinion and I could be wrong!

The entire industry absolutely preys on your willingness to undercut the next guy just to fly a cool aircraft. Take a peek at all of the pay-for-training/pay-for-experience schemes that are out there, Air Inc $200 career events and crowds of pilots screaming at one another to justify driving the profession into the dirt just to fly a slick aircraft.

I can guarantee you that if I purchased a Seneca III, said that I wanted my pilots to load/unload their own cargo, wash the aircraft between flights, fuel it, fly around at 3am in the morning in all sorts of weather in New England and pay me $100/hr for the priviledge of flying my Seneca, I would probably have 500 applications on my desk before the end of the week.
 
Re: Why I feel the way I feel:

[ QUOTE ]
I can guarantee you that if I purchased a Seneca III, said that I wanted my pilots to load/unload their own cargo, wash the aircraft between flights, fuel it, fly around at 3am in the morning in all sorts of weather in New England and pay me $100/hr for the priviledge of flying my Seneca, I would probably have 500 applications on my desk before the end of the week.


[/ QUOTE ]

There will always be people out there willing to do your (generic you) job for mcuh less than you do it now. And unless people stand up and fight against it, guess what? Sooner or later they will be doing your job for much less than what you used to do it for!
 
"But where is the line between business and slapping your employees?"

That's the problem with CEO's like JO and Lorenzo. It's all about making money for the stockholders and who cares about the employees. JO is as bad as Lorenzo, maybe worse. Hope we don't find out.
 
[ QUOTE ]
That's the problem with CEO's like JO and Lorenzo. It's all about making money for the stockholders and who cares about the employees. JO is as bad as Lorenzo, maybe worse. Hope we don't find out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose you didn't buy into PHX Channel 3's "JO rides a Harley!" touchy-feely press coverage?
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There is a lot of bad talk about JO. But, this is the guy that brought Coex out of bankruptcy and led it to where it is today. Mesa ain't doing bad either. Like someone said, he is an astute businessman. However, as long as his employees are cooperative and demand nothing, that is what they will get.
 
[ QUOTE ]
he is an astute businessman.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone can do "well" in business if they exploit their workforce and play by only the rules the feel apply to them (or only the rules they feel people are watching them on). Look at Wal-Mart.

This is the No. 1 problem with business schools today. They point to guys like this as the epitome of good management.
 
Python quote fits JO

...Oh, CEO, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society.
 
The "rumor" I have heard, and I should emphasize the word "rumor," is that the pay rates for the 737 will be the same as for the RJ 700 or 900's. (This coming from a Skywest pilot who purportedly spoke to a Mesa Pilot in lounge somewhere.) I have to agree with the other postings. If true, this is bad news for the industry.

As a pilot who has been sending out applications to various airlines, the Mesa thing has been a dilema for me. (To send an app or not to send an app, that is the ??????) On one hand Mesa seems to really need the pilots, could be a good place to get PIC turbine time and a Capt I know, who works for them, doesn't mind working there.

On the other hand the impression I am getting is that it is becoming the "Wal-Mart" of airlines. Growing like crazy, growth potential for employees, but lower pay & marginal employee treatment. Not to mention the industry wide potential to damage pilot wages and the PFT programs that some, but not all, pilots there have used.

The last ???? I have is could working there become a stigma when applying for other airline jobs in the future?
 
Pilot602 you seem like such a nice guy in your pictures, but your posts sure sound like someone who doesn't read what you are replying to.

None of those airlines you mentioned are majors except Northwest.

All of them have what Doug would call "substandard" pay scales.

People, it may be coffee smelling time. The guaranteed six figure days are coming to an end. Sad as it is, there are just too many pilots our there who will do the job for less.

An Pilot602, "no offense" (hah so far everything you ever say to me seems offensive) but I have a definite interest in airlines and pilots. You know nothing about me if you think otherwise.

To quote me: I have no intention of going back to 121 as a line pilot.

Do some research please. You might even click on my website link. What a novel idea!
 
Mesa and PFT should not be used in the same sentence. That airline has NEVER had PFT.

And Doug, most pilots can pay a mortgage on $85,000 a year. I don't think it's the intention of airline CEOs to see their pilots having beachfront property in Monterey.

Imagine a CEO's day. They get charts, reports, etc. on how their airline is doing. In order to increase profits they look at cost cutting measures. You can't cut fuel, besides that's prepaid for years. You can't cut maintenance, that'll bite you. You can't pay your rampers and gate agents any less, since they are already working minimum wage and "part time" schedules of 5 days 6 hrs to avoid benefits (all they want is the travel card anyway - not my words, the CEOs).

Then we come to pilots. The really senior guys at a major are working 10-12 days a month and making over 200k. Is it any wonder they foam at the mouth about pilot pay? They KNOW there are 1000s for each of them that will do the job at a fraction of the cost.

My good people, if you want to keep the rates for pilot pay up, you have to prove that the pilots are worth it from a financial perspective. We might prove that only high time pilots should be flying, from a safety perspective, but then all you low timers would be whining that you can do the job as well as some old fart with 8000 hours.

Is it true? I don't know. Nobody has done a study on that and everytime somebody starts to do one ALPA quashes it.

You and I know that a safe pilot is worth a couple hundred grand a year easy. The questions are: 1) How do we prove it to the CEOs, and 2) How do determine who is safe and who isn't?
 
[ QUOTE ]
None of those airlines you mentioned are majors except Northwest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, ATA Airlines is a major airline. With major airline pay scales.

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All of them have what Doug would call "substandard" pay scales.

[/ QUOTE ]

See the above.

[ QUOTE ]
People, it may be coffee smelling time. The guaranteed six figure days are coming to an end. Sad as it is, there are just too many pilots our there who will do the job for less.

[/ QUOTE ]

With opinions like yours, it is no doubt the industry is in trouble. Surprisingly, there are also plenty of pilots who want to work to increase pay and work rules. It is just the job of those pilots to educate those who are still caught in the lust of large turbine equipment. I have a question: You said, "This was an introduction to aviation careers for a class of High School students." on your website. Did you tell them it is acceptable to work for peanut wages in this industry? Or did you tell them that the industry is tough, but they should stay focused and strong, keep the eye on the prize, and not sell themselves short?

[ QUOTE ]
To quote me: I have no intention of going back to 121 as a line pilot.

[/ QUOTE ]

So being a line pilot is beneath you?


----

As for JO, I learned in my business classes during college about "ethics in business." Sometimes I wonder if the future CEOs of the companies I'll be employed at were those students who skipped those days. I sure hope not. Ethics in business is just as important to success as a pricing structure or employee pay scales. Dare I say, look at Southwest!
 
Absolutely. That's why I don't mind people know my name and face. I stand by the statements I make, even if others have a difference of opinion. What did I say to elicit a "say that to my face" attitude?
 
True, I suppose I should reword the PFT thing, that is slightly different. I know several pilots who have gone down to FMN
paid a fair amount of cash & done the 1st officer program to get the interview. One is now in a new hire class. Has about 500 hours.
 
One statement, one question:

Statement: Regards airline CEOs and why they make so much money. IMO, you need good management to "jump start" and run the daily ops of companies on the brink. The price of this good management isn't cheap by a long shot. What is good management? There's no firm definition on that. But regards their monetary compensation, they should bear the same "hero or zero" risk of playing the role of manager. They shouldn't get a huge amount of $$$ for success and a large amount of $$$ for failure. Failure should have a much higher price.

Question: Is Mesa large enough to be considered a national?
 
FlyChi, you act like you know everything and I know nothing. You slam everything I say. You slam all of my former airlines. It's no secret that you think very poorly of me.

It's fine if you don't like me but don't let it drip like acid from every post you make. Try some diplomacy.

I'm very glad you got a great opportunity to break in to a tight industry. Please try and be respectful to those that weren't as fortunate as you were.
 
[ QUOTE ]
None of those airlines you mentioned are majors except Northwest.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually they are. At the very least they are larger than regionals which is what you were claiming was all that was left/able to buy up USAir because of anti-trust interests. I called BS on that statement (the antitrust) because it is BS.
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[ QUOTE ]
All of them have what Doug would call "substandard" pay scales.

[/ QUOTE ]

They pay better than Mesa.

[ QUOTE ]
An Pilot602, "no offense" (hah so far everything you ever say to me seems offensive) but I have a definite interest in airlines and pilots. You know nothing about me if you think otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, considering the topic is about pilot pay I don't see how you wanting to go into management really has any bearing on the topic and thus my original question stands. Maybe I seem offenseive because I get a little too close to the truth?
grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
To quote me: I have no intention of going back to 121 as a line pilot.

Do some research please. You might even click on my website link. What a novel idea!

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right ... selling "how to get hired" seminars to "new" pilots -- while you have no interest in doing that very job yourself -- and wanting to join the ranks of management makes your points on the subject even less poingiant. Thanks for clearing that up!
grin.gif


[ QUOTE ]
I'm very glad you got a great opportunity to break in to a tight industry. Please try and be respectful to those that weren't as fortunate as you were.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does the way Chicaga got into flying have any bearing on this thread?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
People, it may be coffee smelling time. The guaranteed six figure days are coming to an end. Sad as it is, there are just too many pilots our there who will do the job for less.

[/ QUOTE ]

With opinions like yours, it is no doubt the industry is in trouble. Surprisingly, there are also plenty of pilots who want to work to increase pay and work rules. It is just the job of those pilots to educate those who are still caught in the lust of large turbine equipment. I have a question: You said, "This was an introduction to aviation careers for a class of High School students." on your website. Did you tell them it is acceptable to work for peanut wages in this industry? Or did you tell them that the industry is tough, but they should stay focused and strong, keep the eye on the prize, and not sell themselves short?



[/ QUOTE ]

Well let's look at another reality, one in-between what Chicaga is saying and what Tenney is saying. In the early 90s most airlines went from an "A" scale to a "B" scale of pay for the pilots. Most of the former A-scalers (the $250-$300K+ guys) have since retired and the formerly known-as B-scale of lower pay has since become the current-day A-scale. Nowdays, we're seeing another B-scale coming (what would've before been a "C" scale) pay-wise with airlines barely hanging on to the ledge over the canyon of Chapter 7/11.

So what to do? Is a pilot worth $300K a year?

How do you measure the worth?

At what point do the demand for these former A-scale airline pilot payscales bankrupt the company, if in fact they do?

What could an airline truly cut dollars-wise to avoid having to cut pay, if anything?

Are the pilots and unions (of all types at the airline) part of the problem or the solution?

Is management part of the problem or the solution?

IMO, the old days of the A-scale is gone. The former B-scale is going the same way. Something needs to be done, since with the way many airlines are going now, there's going to come a time very soon that there's no more water to squeeze out of the proverbial company sponge.

And then it won't matter what wages are or aren't.
 
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