Do they?

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FlyChi, you act like you know everything and I know nothing. You slam everything I say. You slam all of my former airlines. It's no secret that you think very poorly of me.

It's fine if you don't like me but don't let it drip like acid from every post you make. Try some diplomacy.

I'm very glad you got a great opportunity to break in to a tight industry. Please try and be respectful to those that weren't as fortunate as you were.

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It has nothing to do with my job. I don't think you know nothing, and I don't think I know everything. We both just know enough (and don't know enough) to get ourselves in trouble!
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I do think we both have very different opinions, however. Those opinions are just formed based on the experiences we have had, and who we've worked around. I just find it disconcerting that you truly believe it is ok to work for Mesa-type wages, and that it is just fine for JO to bring 737s on the property at CRJ wages. It is something I feel strongly about, as do you.

I am not personally attacking you. I do not know you, besides what you write on here and your website. If my posts seem that way, I apologize. I do not have problems with you, but just with what you write.

It's not that I don't "like" the airlines you worked at. Who knows, my own airline could be extinct next year. Nobody knows. I just don't like where the industry is heading. You just happened to work for a carrier that is currently the poster child for management whipsawing of pilot groups.

I wish people would stop bringing up my "break" into the industry. I know I was very lucky to get where I am, and I will not forget that. But I also know that now that I'm here, it's my responsibility to remain informed about the industry I work in. It is also my responsibility to see, in whatever small manner I can, that the airline pilot profession continues to take strides forward, not backward. Maintaining the opinion that it's ok to have substandard 737 pay wages seems like many steps backwards, IMHO.

Don't take it so personal. It's a difference of opinion, not a slam on you personally.
 
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Well let's look at another reality, one in-between what Chicaga is saying and what Tenney is saying. In the early 90s most airlines went from an "A" scale to a "B" scale of pay for the pilots. Most of the former A-scalers (the $250-$300K+ guys) have since retired and the formerly known-as B-scale of lower pay has since become the current-day A-scale. Nowdays, we're seeing another B-scale coming (what would've before been a "C" scale) pay-wise with airlines barely hanging on to the ledge over the canyon of Chapter 7/11.

So what to do? Is a pilot worth $300K a year?

How do you measure the worth?

At what point do the demand for these former A-scale airline pilot payscales bankrupt the company, if in fact they do?

What could an airline truly cut dollars-wise to avoid having to cut pay, if anything?

Are the pilots and unions (of all types at the airline) part of the problem or the solution?

Is management part of the problem or the solution?

IMO, the old days of the A-scale is gone. The former B-scale is going the same way. Something needs to be done, since with the way many airlines are going now, there's going to come a time very soon that there's no more water to squeeze out of the proverbial company sponge.

And then it won't matter what wages are or aren't.

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I think the biggest problem with the airlines is they simply don't know how to make money. They airlines have only been de-regulated for the past 20 years or so. Up until that point they lived large off of government pork. Then all of a sudden that rug was pulled out from underneath them. And, literally, over night they had to start learning how to make money with a business many of the CEOs at the time (and even now) knew largely nothing about. Why should they know ... they had government money pouring in. So now that they have to make money with real work they go for the easy fix -- squeeze the employee. Which would be fine if they themselves weren't reaping rewards far dsiproportionate to their role in the company and at the expense of those they "manage."

Maybe a pilot isn't worth $300k (and there was never any large portion of pilots making that kind of money at any time in the history of the job) but they sure as hell are worth more than the average McDonald's employee. But if it's fair to ask what a pilot is worth by the same token it's not only fair, bu prudent, to ask the same question of CEOs. Is a CEO worth a $3 million sign-non bonus to take over a bankrupt company -- a $3 miilion bonus he keeps regardless of the outcome or his length of stay?

In the end it'll probably take both sides working together to fix tings but therein lies the problem. Management wants to squeeze and cheap and work all labor (pilots, rampers, ticket agents, etc.) for insulting wages while they themselves walk away with hundreds of millions in compensation even when they run the business into the ground!

Management has the power. They always have and they always will. To claim unions are destroying the world is a little over-the-top. All unions really do is help to slow the arbitrary dimminishing of employee wages and working conditions. Part 121 was practically written by ALPA and those rules help all pilots -- union or not -- who work under that part!

That said unions aren't the end-all, be-all ofthe world and they have as many problems as management does but without them the role of a pilot or mechanic or whatever would be far, far worse off. It's a necessary evil.
 
No the truth does not offend me. You are offending me because you attribute things to me that are not true.

Don't worry, you aren't touching a nerve. Not even close.

A couple comments. Not all of those carriers you mentioned pay better than Mesa. Spirit, notably.

A 10 year RJ900 captain at Mesa will make over $80,000.
$82.32 * 970 (avg hrs mesa captains were paid last year) = $79850.40 + pr diem average of $3200 = approx. $83000 (Notice I said hours paid, not flown!)

A 10 year MD80 captain at Spirit is showing less than 80k on the contract I have, but I am still looking for a new copy, the contract I have is dated 2000.

My contacts at Mesa have indicated to me that the 737 pay scales will be better than Midway's, but not as good as Delta or Southwest. I would expect the same from any startup.

New hire FOs will be in the vicinity of $40/hr (way better than Midway) and captains will start near $85.

Random comments:

Line pilot may be "beneath" me in a way, but not the tone presented - I just don't want to take a paycut right now. There are also other pilot positions besides mgt pilot, such as training department.

About ATA being a major: From the DOT as of Nov 2002 "The ten major passenger airlines are Alaska Airlines, America West Airlines, American Airlines, Continental Airlines, Delta Air Lines, Northwest Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Trans World Airlines, United Airlines, and US Airways. The three major all-cargo airlines are DHL Airways, Federal Express, and UPS."

Notice TWA is in there LOL.

I don't see ATA in there, although they show up in the 2002 2nd Q financial report as a major. An airline has to post over 1 billion in Operating Revenues to be a major and ATA did 1.1 in 2002. Congrats to ATA.
 
One other random comment. I am limited by the rules of this forum but you brought it up.

As for "selling "how to get hired" seminars to "new" pilots" ...

Let me say this one more time. This is not an income center to me. (Ask one of your CEO buddies to look that up for you.)

I don't make a living doing that. It is an alternative that my friends and I want to provide as opposed to the ripoffs that are out there. We do it on our days off.

If you will check prices I think you will see what I mean.

Next time you slam me or my business, I will take it as a personal attack.
 
FlyChi thanks for the explanation. No offense taken.

I am sad that Mesa is the "poster child" as you put it, because the wages are really not substandard. In fact they are adjusted every year to exactly the industry average.

There are many many carriers out there with much lower wage scales. For some reason Mesa gets all the visibility.

Remember when you are figuring wages over at the contract site that Mesa is paid 13 months a year, as a "month" at Mesa is only 28 days.

My only full year as a CRJ captain at Mesa was my highest income year as an airilne pilot (around $65k.)

2003 was the first year in my life that I exceeded that, and very little of that was aviation income. Oh and none of it was from seminars before you ask, that money did not offset expenses incurred.

The majority of my income now comes from consulting fees, primarily to the Worker's Comp and Health Insurance industries. Fortunately, they pay me to fly to visit sites
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You are offending me because you attribute things to me that are not true.


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What have I "attributed" to you that you have not said?

As far as the seminars go ... I didn't claim you were making money off the seminars, John. My point was the irony of "teaching" people how to get a job you admit you no longer want to do. Read, comprehend, reply.

As far as personal attacks go I've not once attacked you personally. If I were to call you a fat, bumbling idiot ... that would be a personal attack .. and so far I've not called you anything of the kind. I've simply responded to your own words with points of my own.

If you'd like to denegrate this to the level of personal attacks feel free to PM me and Ill be happy to show you what a personal attack from me looks like!
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It's not ironic at all! I had to do that job to get to where I am today. Do the people that teach in colleges aspire to be the profession they teach? NO.

Look at college professors. Many are retired from the industry they teach.

So just call me "Professor Tenney." (I had one student ask for Doctor Tenney once on the phone, cracked up our receptionist!)
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And I am still actively involved in the airline industry as a consultant. Please don't ask me who, there is such a thing as client confidentiality. I don't have any active contracts with airlines right now but there are two regionals I do work for from time to time.

Oh and by the way, Please tell me which CEO has taken "hundreds of millions" from an airline? I'd like to learn more about that!
 
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Oh and by the way, Please tell me which CEO has taken "hundreds of millions" from an airline? I'd like to learn more about that!

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Didn't say it was one CEO. But to humor you .. add up Wolf, Carty, Ichan, Lorenzo and you'd be in the hundreds of millions pretty quickly. Not a bad haul for four people.
 
Let's see: Wolf. Well Wolf took about $10 mil from United and another $12 mil from USAir and he's by far the worst on your list. That guy is trouble.

Lorenzo went bankrupt after the Eastern shutdown. I don't think he left with a bunch of cash. He planned on having lots of cash for sure, but I can't remember any big stories about buying a yacht or a private jet.

Carty's plan to take big bonuses got blocked if you will recall, and those bonuses were returned to the company.

Carl Ichan I don't know much about, but he would need to have about $80 million in his pocket to bring the count up to "hundreds of millions"

As long as you are hunting CEO villains, here's a couple for you: Bob Crandall (bad dude), Bob Ferguson (a Lorenzo student), Leo Mullins (pretty bad dude) and go ahead and throw Hulas Kanodias in the mess. For years I heard Transstates pilots saying they had to go "take a Hoolie" as they went to the bathroom.

Come to think of it, I still "go take a Risley" now and then.

I think any airline CEO is going to be a target for criticism. Even Herb Kelleher has his critics.

Most CEOs are just doing their job, and their job is to reduce pilot labor costs, any way possible. Our job, as labor, is to prove to the CEO and the Shareholders that we are worth what we want.
 
John, let me be completely frank.

No one is personally attacking you.

I feel you have every intention in the world of convincing Mesa to give you your job back for a number of reasons. I've even been eavesdropping over at mesalounge and you're tangled in battle with those gentleman as well. It's tremendously obvious and I think I'm doing you a great favor by being blunt.

My best advice would be to chill out, stop taking stuff personal and if you're doing absolutely nothing to better the profession rather than spout "the days of six figure airline jobs are gone", I suggest you put the old Midway and Mesa pilot caps on eBay and just let it go.

No one is attacking you.

No one is attacking Mesa.

What we are attacking is the defeatest attitude that the sun's not going to one day rise again on this proud profession if we took our collective heads out of our arses and half "the race towards the bottom". You can't both hunger for a big plate of rancid liver and onions, and then complain about the stench.

By all means Mr. Tenney, there are a lot of people watching this thread, many could have been potential business for you.
 
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You and I know that a safe pilot is worth a couple hundred grand a year easy. The questions are: 1) How do we prove it to the CEOs, and 2) How do determine who is safe and who isn't?

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Simple.

How much does an airplane cost? How much do companies have to pay out in damages if a plane crashes?

Just tell the CEO to do the math. And not Enron/WorldCom/Adelphia math, but real world math.

It is far better to pay someone $300K a year when they're flying a $100 million airplane than to get a cheap guy to do it, don't you think?
 
Doug, that's half right. I do think that the line pilots retiring as millionaires days are probably "heading towards the sunset" as you say.

UNLESS we can convince the public, shareholders and CEOs that we are worth it!

The rest I'll PM you.
 
Nah, I don't require a private message.

It's not the shareholders.

It's not the company.

It's not the economy.

It's the defeatest attitude that 'the end is near so $40G's to fly a $25,000,000 jet is better than I was getting at Wal Mart' is what's destroying this career.

We're the enemy. Me, you, a lot of people. We can blame it on management all we want but when we sign concessionary contracts, rationalize pay-for-training, 'get 'em on the property and try to get better rates later', and a bunch of other pilot-induced crap, we're staring the enemy right in the eye when we look in the mirror.

If you want your job back, apply. But don't denigrate my chosen profession and seemingly lovingly harken the end of 'six figure pilots' and herald the idea that Mesa will be potentially flying 737-300's at regional rates as a great advancement.

It's not. No matter how you spin it, churn it, smack-it-up/flip-it/rub-it-down (oh noo!) we've all got to take a bite out of that self-induced sh*t sandwich.

Besides, in the real world, six-fig's today is about $40G's in the 80's.
 
Well as some or possibly all of you who post on this site might know.

Next to a doctor when it comes to training/recurrent training,schooling etc.

It is a pilot.

Thats more training then a lawyer, an engineer or a sports athelete.

So then why aren't professional pilots paid on the same level as a doctor.

(My mother is a teacher why doesn't she make a 6 figure salary. But that is a post for a different topic and a different website)

$200-300K for 20-30 year pilots is a good start I'd say.

Personally I believe a 20-30 yr. capt. flying a 747,A340,777 should be making $300-500K a year.

Probably unrealistic but thats my opinion.

I also believe that regional pilots should start out at $35-40K and top out at $80-90K

John Teeney what is your opposition to being a line pilot?

I gather that you work for MESA.

And as I understand it a line pilot is a pilot that can hold a dedicated "line" vs. being on reserve.

If that be true again why do you hold being a "line" pilot with such contempt?


Matthew
 
Gosh I never said $40k!!!

Well maybe for an FO, first year or so ...

But that's true at SWA, Airtran, jetBlue, ATA, etc now. How much did new hire FOs in the 737-MCO Delta Express deal get? It was only about $25k wasn't it?

If your dream is to be an airline pilot then nothing I can say will stop you. It's not a bad dream after all. Enjoy every day and don't bring people down with griping.

Please note that I'm not griping.

I'm living my dream right now. I work out of my home 90% of the time. If I have to travel I rent a plane and go where I want to go, when I want to go there. THAT's what aviation is all about brothers and sisters.

I sleep in my own bed with my wife just about every night, only the rare overnight for a client once in awhile precludes that, and many times I bring her and the kid along anyway.

This would not have happened, however, if I hadn't done the line pilot thing first. It's all Part of The Plan.
 
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Gosh I never said $40k!!!

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rhetorical statement

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Well maybe for an FO, first year or so ...

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Not really. I still have problems rationalizing that a first officer of anything (Beech 1900 up to a 777-300) should be paid less than a municipal garbage collector. Heck, my brother works for the moquito abatement department out in Tulare County and made nearly $70K his first year. Spraying for bugs...

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How much did new hire FOs in the 737-MCO Delta Express deal get? It was only about $25k wasn't it?

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Probationary pay was approx $50k the first year as per the current contract and I don't have any rates after that because DLX is DLGone.
 
I had a lot of friends who went to DE from Mesa. They all complained about probationary pay in the mid 20's. I never heard 50k mentinoed at all.

Allen S. went to the 737-800 in the north somewhere and he was making $36k or thereabouts. Of course this was all pre-contract.

And yes I agree about the new hire FO rates - they are WAY too low for the job, but that old supply vs. demand thing kicks in here. Too many pilots for too few jobs.

I lived on credit cards for 3 years until I upgraded. It was not pleasant.
 
My W2 from 1998 was well over $30K for probationary pay which is the same rate fleet wide.

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Allen S. went to the 737-800 in the north somewhere and he was making $36k or thereabouts. Of course this was all pre-contract.

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If he was off probation when he told you this, he certainly wasn't working for Delta. Pre- or post-contract 2000.
 
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