Do not let ATC fly your airplane

[TripSix]

It's an emergency. Doesn't matter what. Give him what he wants unless it's going to cause big boom.

I agree. See my post about "be advised I was just advised to tell you..."

I was just offering an insight to, at times, what is actually going on is not quite the same as what is passed on by the time it gets to the controller who will work the airplane. In this particular situation there was a little more to this than reported, but that's a beer story, not a public forum story.

Again, I agree with the give him what he wants. After all, there is a reason he wants it - and that's his call to make.

When I've asked the intentions of an IFE in the past, the responses have not been requests - they were informing me what *was* going to happen...as it should be...

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

If ATC is not providing services enough to meet your needs to ensure safety during an emergency, then it is upon the PIC to exercise their deviation authority.

If you need the runway and they are not giving it to you, then you must take action.

Your life > your certificate> atc

 

[MikeD]

If ATC is not providing services enough to meet your needs to ensure safety during an emergency, then it is upon the PIC to exercise their deviation authority.

If you need the runway and they are not giving it to you, then you must take action.

Your life > your certificate> atc

Just make sure you do it smartly and with some semblance of SA, because ATC may be working offline to try and get the area cleared for you, and you don't want to turn your emergency into an air or ground collision with another aircraft, for example. By the same token, ATC should be helping the pilot out with the above by keeping him well informed of the reason for any delay, no matter how short or long, and working to clear it up as fast as possible.

Depending on the circumstances, the location, the time of day/night, type of airport, amount of traffic, and the amount of time both the pilot has to work the problem as well as ATC being able to work it too; an emergency can go very smooth or can be a complete cluster.....and everything inbetween.

 

[derg]

Never second guess (or fatally presume) of what is going on behind the scenes. Fly the jet. And if it's that bad, talk them through what you are going to do and do it.

Avianca anyone?


Sent from my TRS-80

 

[MikeD]

Never second guess (or fatally presume) of what is going on behind the scenes. Fly the jet. And if it's that bad, talk them through what you are going to do and do it.

Avianca anyone?

Problem there was not informing ATC of what was really going on, and how in-extremis they really were; not helped out by the timid and unassertive co-pilot and non-english speaking Captain.

 

[derg]

Good point.

However, if we had a serious issue like that, on our side of the flying biz, we'd have had a conversation with dispatch and maintenance too. If they were on the ball, they could have probably declared and spent plenty of time explaining to ATC which this flight needed priority.

I think everyone played some part of the situation going south.


Sent from my TRS-80

 

[Autothrust Blue]

If ATC is not providing services enough to meet your needs to ensure safety during an emergency, then it is upon the PIC to exercise their deviation authority.

If you need the runway and they are not giving it to you, then you must take action.

Your life > your certificate> atc

I love regional approach and DFW tower. But if I need 17C, I'm going direct ZINGG, and that's the end of that. I'm sure I'll have a good reason (not dying).

 

[MikeD]

Good point.

However, if we had a serious issue like that, on our side of the flying biz, we'd have had a conversation with dispatch and maintenance too. If they were on the ball, they could have probably declared and spent plenty of time explaining to ATC which this flight needed priority.

I think everyone played some part of the situation going south.

Curiously, do foreign flights have that luxury in US airports.......use of dispatch and/or maintenance?

PHX, for example, I couldnt' see the one British Airways 747 that comes into there having much in the way of ground support there at KPHX, besides bare bones. Or is it more extensive than that?

 

[z987k]

I love regional approach and DFW tower. But if I need 17C, I'm going direct ZINGG, and that's the end of that. I'm sure I'll have a good reason (not dying).

Ya, the conversation would go like this. Me- declaring an emergency, we need 17C. ATC - unable 17C expect 31. Me - Proceeding direct IAF for 17C.(or FAF, or the numbers wx depending). If they want to explain why that would be impossible, we'll work on something else. 17R looks like a valid alternative if there's already a crash and fire on 17C.

 

[MikeD]

I love regional approach and DFW tower. But if I need 17C, I'm going direct ZINGG, and that's the end of that. I'm sure I'll have a good reason (not dying).

Ya, the conversation would go like this. Me- declaring an emergency, we need 17C. ATC - unable 17C expect 31. Me - Proceeding direct IAF for 17C.(or FAF, or the numbers wx depending). If they want to explain why that would be impossible, we'll work on something else. 17R looks like a valid alternative if there's already a crash and fire on 17C.

Like I said before, whatever you do.....even if as an emergency....do it smartly and with some semblance of SA (that which isn't being used to handle the emergency), rather than just barelling down through traffic. Because if you cause another accident while exercising your emergency authority, that will get classed as careless and reckless regardless of the overriding circumstances.......assuming, of course, that you survive for it to matter. If you're dead, then hells bells.

It sucks, I know, but it comes with the territory if one wants to play in this game.

 

[I_Money]

Mike what were the 6 other emergencies? Sounds like a bad day? In the AF does hull cost play into it - will they let an F16 guy punch out and give a B2 priority?

 

[jtrain609]

Like I said before, whatever you do.....even if as an emergency....do it smartly and with some semblance of SA (that which isn't being used to handle the emergency), rather than just barelling down through traffic. Because if you cause another accident while exercising your emergency authority, that will get classed as careless and reckless regardless of the overriding circumstances.......assuming, of course, that you survive for it to matter. If you're dead, then hells bells.

It sucks, I know, but it comes with the territory if one wants to play in this game.

The procedures these guys are outlining are what their FOM says. When you hit emergency fuel, the company has trained people, and expects you to declare an emergency, inform the controllers of your intentions, and proceed directly to the marker for the runway that you need, no questions asked.

If you don't follow the FOM, you're just as likely to get gigged with a careless and reckless operation in my mind.

 

[mikecweb]

Yea but if following the FOM is going to run you into another airplane your name will come up in the company newsletter for a different reason.

 

[jtrain609]

Yea but if following the FOM is going to run you into another airplane your name will come up in the company newsletter for a different reason.

I'll take avoiding another aircraft, or landing on a taxiway, or getting anywhere near the airport over putting it into a field or somebody's house.

 

[mikecweb]

I'll take avoiding another aircraft, or landing on a taxiway, or getting anywhere near the airport over putting it into a field or somebody's house.

Does it say that in your FOM? If your IMC the only thing you can avoid is the ground without ATC most of the time.
I've declared one emergency and thank god it was VMC but it was As & Es for the tower at the airport I was going into to get everyone out of the way.

 

[highspeed]

Curiously, do foreign flights have that luxury in US airports.......use of dispatch and/or maintenance?

PHX, for example, I couldnt' see the one British Airways 747 that comes into there having much in the way of ground support there at KPHX, besides bare bones. Or is it more extensive than that?

For VS anyway, that would have been a losing bet. They could call the lcl airport ops agent on the air-to-ground if close enough, but then you'd have a Brit pilot talking "airplane" to a Yank agent who doesn't get it. Hell, when i'd go on joy rides in a 172 I'd call up work and they wouldn't answer me! Even when I said my first name over the radio. Aside from that they could ACARS UK Ops/Maintrol or use the sat-phone. Those folks might call lcl ops (again good luck getting a good outcome) or call ATC direct. Low fuel due wx holds were the only time it might work bc there was a bit more time and other options like a BOS divert. Aside from that they'd just work it with ATC direct.

 

[jtrain609]

Does it say that in your FOM? If your IMC the only thing you can avoid is the ground without ATC most of the time.
I've declared one emergency and thank god it was VMC but it was As & Es for the tower at the airport I was going into to get everyone out of the way.

I'm not sure what the exact language is, I'd have to pull it out, and as we're both aware, I'm kind of lazy

I can see what you're saying for small airports that have lots of GA traffic and no TCAS, but going into a hub with radar coverage, and it would be a mess. There's no discounting that.

But in the end, the chances of hitting another aircraft that doesn't respond to an RA, that doesn't get vectored out of the way by ATC, that doesn't hear you charging down the approach course and goes missed on their own, is unlikely in my mind. Combined with the always exciting "big sky theory," I'm generally less concerned about hitting another aircraft than I am hitting a field after all the fuel is gone. Because at this point we're talking about risk management, and at a point it comes down to what you're more afraid of; the possibility of running into another airplane, which I'm not personally all that concerned with even in this situation, or running into a field where your plane is going to break apart and kill everybody when you dead stick it in, or worse, running into a subdivision and killing everybody in your plane AND everybody you hit on the ground.

 

[mikecweb]

How many lives do I get for this level?

 

[MikeD]

The procedures these guys are outlining are what their FOM says. When you hit emergency fuel, the company has trained people, and expects you to declare an emergency, inform the controllers of your intentions, and proceed directly to the marker for the runway that you need, no questions asked.

If you don't follow the FOM, you're just as likely to get gigged with a careless and reckless operation in my mind.

Sure, but following the FOM isn't accomplished blindly and in a vacuum. Im not saying don't do the procedure, Im saying do the procedure smartly and safely, which the "how" will vary depending on your situation.

 

[MikeD]

Mike what were the 6 other emergencies? Sounds like a bad day? In the AF does hull cost play into it - will they let an F16 guy punch out and give a B2 priority?

It was definitely an exception of a day, but one that can happen when WX drops and you have a bunch of jets airborne that can't divert.

In my situation in Korea, I had a failure of one side of my electrical system while IMC, a definite emergency in the 117. About 80 miles from base, I declare an IFE with the Korean center, then am handed to the approach controller who wants to know the nature of my emergency in more detail. I let him know what I've got, and the potential for further electrical problems, and knowing the WX being ~150-200' and 1/2 mile, the only useable approach was the PAR into the prime base. I'm pretty much expecting to be THE priority due to both my aircraft type as well as my emergency that could very well turn extremely serious. Expecting to get automatically vectored in and preparing to take vectors to a handoff to the PAR final controller shortly, I'm instead given a hold, as there are 23 other fighters trying to get in at various distances from the field and in the pattern, and I'm the #7 IFE in progress, the other ones being an F-16 with a lightning strike that has limited electrics who's being led in by his wingman through the WX on a formation penetration, 4 others (2 x F-4s, and 2 x F-5s) who are emergency fuel or nearing it, and one other with a hydraulics malfunction. So now my emergency is kind of second rate....I mean, I still have electrics unlike the F-16....though they're not working that good and could go out at any time, but I'm not about to flame out any minute either like the two F-4s, and the two F-5s. Considering all that, there was NO way I could say "unable" and just come barelling inbound and penetrate the WX on my own; as my problems were now minor in comparison with the others, even if I was in the most expensive of all the aircraft almost combined. So, I entered a hold for other emergency traffic to recover, until I could be given vectors to the GCA final controller for my own recovery; knowing that if my remaining electrics fail, my jet will be nothing more than a brick and I'd have to jump out of it. But that's the cards Im dealt and have to play; what the hell else am I going to do? The flight ops and ATC Sups made a call on priority, and thats that, especially with nowhere else close to go that would save time.

Granted, this is a very extreme example, yes, but still one that shows that while you may have used the "E word", it might not always mean that traffic INSTANTLY stops and is cleared for you, and the controllers workload and attention can just automatically go to you. As I said, you've now just unintentionally become a royal pain in the ass to ATC, especially when there's a combo of high traffic, low WX, and/or other emergencies in progress.