Do airlines care about busting the CFI checkride?

[Stone Cold]

Granted, it was a while back, but I did the bulk of my ratings there and instructed there as well. PRC campus.

All of the guys/gals I knew who had multiple busts throughout the program had significant issues with their performance. I'm not a super pilot, and myself and many others managed to get through without a bust. Occasionally I saw hair-splitting stuff, but for the most part the failures were legitimate.

When did you attend Riddle? I would never comment on a current rumor about the place since I left 20 years ago. I don't think (alright, I know you aren't my generation, but play along) you are that old, but things change very fast at that school some times. Ask me how I know, from 20 years ago over beers sometime. No, I never had a single ride bust at Riddle, for the record.

 

[Apophis]

Undoubtedly. Being a solid 61er, I have heard stories of people failing rides at certain schools by being slightly off center line on taxi, or taxiing too fast. I taxied too fast on my Private ride and was simply told "slow down" because of x, y, and z (that ride was was done with a hard-ass DE: I thought I had failed, but passed. Didn't feel good about it though). On that particular ride I was stressed out came out on top. As I learned more and thought about it more he was doing just that: stressing me out. I didn't fail to perform a task outside of the PTS. That being said, hearing of students and pilots getting busted over trivial matters that should simply be reminders to enhance safety, is disheartening. Not everyone is going to have a perfect flight, part of flying is human error and sometimes we need a DPE to remind us.

Not starting a 61 vs. 141 debate, but its seems like there are some hard-ass DPE's screwing with peoples careers at those schools from what I have heard. Could be coffee pot FBO talk from all I know.

You should have told him you were practicing for when you get hired by Southwest Airlines.

 

[dasleben]

When did you attend Riddle? I would never comment on a current rumor about the place since I left 20 years ago. I don't think (alright, I know you aren't my generation, but play along) you are that old, but things change very fast at that school some times. Ask me how I know, from 20 years ago over beers sometime. No, I never had a single ride bust at Riddle, for the record.

I attended 2001-2005... Definitely possible that things have changed over the last 10 years.

 

[Stone Cold]

I attended 2001-2005... Definitely possible that things have changed over the last 10 years.

And that was my point. Things change. We've been out of there for a while, and you even went to "that other campus", so you never know if it's the DAB campus, or your place...I agree in one respect. We had guys on the 10 year plan. I've talked about it before on here I think, but we had an aero sci guy on the "1985" catalog plan in 1992 when I met him his junior year. There are definitely those people out there, but to blanket statement that Riddle hasn't changed when we don't even know which campus is kind of not realistic, IMO...

 

[GypsyPilot]

Just don't have the FAA ride along in the backseat. She aint very nice.

I've done two checkrides with the FAA observing - my comm multi and my 135 PIC. Both were very professional.

 

[dasleben]

And that was my point. Things change. We've been out of there for a while, and you even went to "that other campus", so you never know if it's the DAB campus, or your place...I agree in one respect. We had guys on the 10 year plan. I've talked about it before on here I think, but we had an aero sci guy on the "1985" catalog plan in 1992 when I met him his junior year. There are definitely those people out there, but to blanket statement that Riddle hasn't changed when we don't even know which campus is kind of not realistic, IMO...

I was simply giving my experience there. Never implied anything further. YMMV, etc.

 

[n57flyguy]

You should have told him you were practicing for when you get hired by Southwest Airlines.

That ride was a pain, had me do steep turns over and over (was constantly 50-75 ft. off, airspeed on). He takes the plane over, does one about 30 ft low. I finally said "Well, thats what I can do right now, does that work?" and he gave me a radial to follow. Then tries to put me in the pattern 300ft above altitude after unusual attitudes. Nope. Great guy to talk to, but won't do a ride with him. Then proceded to rail me on a debrief about a few minor things with a bitter "I'll write you a ticket, but ya need some work..." My CFI and I were like uhh yeah of course. Oh yeah you know what you call a New Private Pilot? A Private Pilot.

 

[TWP]

I don't know what it is with FSDO inspectors on the CFI ride, man. My initial CFI-I oral was 6 hours long (it was already scheduled as a 2 day event), and after day one and passing the oral, I felt two things: 1) Like I just somehow survived some major ordeal that was being reported by all the news stations and 2) fear of the next day. Didn't help that I drew the inspector that proudly touted a 100% failure rate. I honestly don't think I've topped the flying I did on day two of that checkride since. I managed to pass. When I got back to the flight school no one believed me.....

It seems the routine is punish and promote. Fail them the first time then pass them the second regardless of whether or not they deserved to pass or fail so it seems like they are doing something. Typical gubmt stuff. Luckily, my local fsdo treats people fairly.

 

[at1024]

It seems the routine is punish and promote. Fail them the first time then pass them the second regardless of whether or not they deserved to pass or fail so it seems like they are doing something. Typical gubmt stuff. Luckily, my local fsdo treats people fairly.

I've heard from more than one airline recruiter that initial CFI busts, especially those conducted by the FSDO, are not weighed all that heavily in the selection process. I think it has to do with a combination of what is mentioned in the quote above, and the fact that it is not a practical test for an actual pilot certificate. I know quite a few current 121 guys, including myself, who have managed to pass every single checkride first time except for that one. So yes, the airlines know and as they get more desperate it doesn't really matter.

 

[at1024]

I was asked this during my 121 interview. I think it's silly because there is often 0 standardization with these stage check CFIs, and no accountability. We had one CFI that would fail preprivate students on their lack of knowledge of ice fog at a school in Texas where we rarely get temps below 30

Sucks to hear this. I was a senior check instructor at a large 141 school in Florida, and part of my job entailed monitoring stage check failures for bogus reasons such as this one. We didn't tolerate this kind of BS and would call the examiner in question in to get the full story and counsel them if needed. This kind of stuff can give a school a bad rep and even worse, harm the student's career down the road.

We were a very standardized group, held regular group meetings, and had very open doors for the more junior examiners to come in with questions so that we could lead them in the right direction.

 

[MikeOH58]

Not that I agree with it at all, but if an airline does care about a check ride bust, does time heal the wound? I just find it hard to imagine an airline round filing a candidate with a primary bust 10+, 20+ years removed.

 

[Ajax]

Obviously I don't run interviews for a 121 or even 135 operation, but in my opinion a CFI initial bust doesn't carry too much weight. Same as a PPL bust. Once you get up to instrument and commercial I think it starts to mean more. But a private? Just getting started, never being tested before I don't care about it. A CFI initial bust, I don't see it as a big deal either.

These are just my opinions on the matter after instructing for a while and seeing it from the other side.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

The only busts that in my opinion cause harm are 121/135 PC busts or training failures, except if you've never before worked at an air carrier before in which case primary flight training checks are all you have to judge.

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[PhilosopherPilot]

When I was in recruiting we compiled a 5 year history of hiring data including how many extra sims each person needed, and who washed out. Many things that we thought would be statistically significant were not, and vice versa. Three things did show a statistical indication of training success:

1. GPA (High school or college, whichever was on their record.)
2. Simulator evaluation score below X value. Anything above X was irrelevant.
3. Number of failed check rides. 1 was okay, 2 showed a slight increase in sim count, and 3 or greater went off the chart. I can't remember the data now, but it was clear that 3 or more indicated an issue, regardless of which check rides it was.

So that's what drove our hiring standards for several years. It has all changed now, I'm sure. We did hire people with 3 failures occasionally, but it took a really high up recommendation. More than 3, and it was essentially impossible to get hired.

 

[Patrick]

The only busts that in my opinion cause harm are 121/135 PC busts or training failures, except if you've never before worked at an air carrier before in which case primary flight training checks are all you have to judge.

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Fully agree. I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again: the training environment is just that, and failure is part of learning. Until the FAA actually gets the standards really standardized, and you remove the examiners at both ends of the spectrum (those that will pass anyone, and those who will fail an applicant for being 1' off taxi centerline), it's all almost meaningless to me how many rides you bust between PPL and CMEL or CSEL.

The CFI busts technically aren't even on your pilot license, as your CFI cert is a separate cert, but again, knowing how many FSDO's fail guys on their first attempt just because they can, again- this carries almost zero weight to me.

Now, once you get to the 121/ 135 world, and you start failing PC's or upgrade training and the like, I see a definite issue. If you can't do steep turns, stalls, and fly 4 approaches to ATP standards in the airplane you fly everyday, I definitely see an issue there.

 

[mshunter]

Short answer, yes. They care about all failed training events and check rides. What you need to be concerned about is a pattern.