Do airlines care about busting the CFI checkride?

[Roger Roger]

Undoubtedly. Being a solid 61er, I have heard stories of people failing rides at certain schools by being slightly off center line on taxi, or taxiing too fast. I taxied too fast on my Private ride and was simply told "slow down" because of x, y, and z (that ride was was done with a hard-ass DE: I thought I had failed, but passed. Didn't feel good about it though). On that particular ride I was stressed out came out on top. As I learned more and thought about it more he was doing just that: stressing me out. I didn't fail to perform a task outside of the PTS. That being said, hearing of students and pilots getting busted over trivial matters that should simply be reminders to enhance safety, is disheartening. Not everyone is going to have a perfect flight, part of flying is human error and sometimes we need a DPE to remind us.

Not starting a 61 vs. 141 debate, but its seems like there are some hard-ass DPE's screwing with peoples careers at those schools from what I have heard. Could be coffee pot FBO talk from all I know.

One check instructor I knew had a reputation for failing students for not knowing the ins and outs of prog charts. On a pre-solo stage check.

 

[g550driver]

One thing important to point out is that if it was a 141 bust, it is not a bust.

 

[USMCmech]

One check instructor I knew had a reputation for failing students for not knowing the ins and outs of prog charts. On a pre-solo stage check.

He got promoted to Chief.

 

[n57flyguy]

One check instructor I knew had a reputation for failing students for not knowing the ins and outs of prog charts. On a pre-solo stage check.

Wow.

What does that mean (RP on sectional)?......Ummm RP, hm. RP.....*flips to legend*....RP...radio proc....no.....remotly pil...no.....you know, gonna have to tell you I don't know.

 

[desertdog71]

Just explain what happened and what you learned from it. I had two busted rides coming up and it didn't prevent me from getting hired.

 

[Boyington]

I was recently talking to some ERAU guys that all had MANY failed check rides. One dude had 8 failures. They said that it was very common in their class to fail multiple times due to the examiners that ERAU used (in house). Can anyone confirm that this is true?

Assuming the check rides were done under part 141, most of them would probably be "progress checks" per the FAA, and wouldn't show up as failures in the records that airlines get from the FAA.

Generally, the progress checks in the middle of a 141 course (pre solo, pre cross country, etc...) aren't reported to the FAA (they're recorded in the students records with the school, but that's about it), and unless there was an 8710 filed, the FAA generally doesn't know or care what happens on progress checks.

They are not 141. They are 142, and it does show up on your record.

 

[at1024]

They are not 141. They are 142, and it does show up on your record.

Last I heard they lost their 142 cert and went back to 141. The FAA was not a huge fan of their 142 program. Also I'm not sure if an in house bust would show up on your record or not. No matter how many attempts it takes to pass an in house end of course ride, only one 8710 gets sent off to the FAA.

And I'm about 99% sure that the flight schools are required to keep student records on file for only one year. But don't quote me on that.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Failing a checkride is generally (not always) more about the instructor than the student. A good instructor will not recommend if the student is not ready. One of the foremost duties of an instructor is properly to assess student readiness. Yes, yes... there are always exceptions... every once in a great while someone can't fly the plane that day because of external issues unrelated to flying ability. And somewhat more frequently there are female hygiene products who have somehow become examiners. I suppose it might also be possible that for psychological reasons an instructor might recommend hoping the student will fail. I like to think that most folks are decent. That said, sociopaths do comprise approximately 4%-5% of the population with higher distributions amongst management levels. And folks (examiners included) are surprisingly susceptible to sycophancy. I'm not sure I've ever known anyone who has performed a checkride 100% within PTS. Despite passing them, I'm pretty sure I never have. But the margin for ignored error increases greatly depending on the quality of the affective domain. Any examiner can find many things to harp on. And harp on. And harp on... until the harping messes with the applicant's mind so badly it results in an objective bust. So, yeah, as objective as we all pretend the test is, it's still got a huge subjective component. Pretty much like everything else comprising the human condition.

 

[JustinS]

Also I'm not sure if an in house bust would show up on your record or not. No matter how many attempts it takes to pass an in house end of course ride, only one 8710 gets sent off to the FAA.

In house busts will not show up on your record. Unless you've received a pink slip, then you haven't failed a check-ride. What a Part 141 student can always do if they're unsure, is to request PRIA records from the FAA.

And I'm about 99% sure that the flight schools are required to keep student records on file for only one year. But don't quote me on that.

From what I've seen, our school will keep records indefinitely. I think it's mostly a CYA kind of thing.

 

[Roger Roger]

He got promoted to Chief.

That was actually delta alpha not bravo Charlie IIRC.

 

[USMCmech]

That was actually delta alpha not bravo Charlie IIRC.

So, I was filling out my airlineapps.com forms today and came across this little gem from Envoy. "Have you ever received an unsatisfactory evaluation during any pilot training, testing, or checking event?"

That includes stage checks if I am reading it correctly. Just imagine a LETU student filling out that form.

 

[JustinS]

So, I was filling out my airlineapps.com forms today and came across this little gem from Envoy. "Have you ever received an unsatisfactory evaluation during any pilot training, testing, or checking event?"

That includes stage checks if I am reading it correctly. Just imagine a LETU student filling out that form.

From everything I've read, that doesn't include stage checks.

 

[PhilosopherPilot]

I'm not sure I've ever known anyone who has performed a checkride 100% within PTS.

Even if you exceed PTS, that's not an automatic failure. The PTS is clear that it needs to be consistent deviation from standard. At least, if your check airman is doing it right that's the case...

 

[bc2209]

Just don't have the FAA ride along in the backseat. She aint very nice.

 

[Patrick]

So, I was filling out my airlineapps.com forms today and came across this little gem from Envoy. "Have you ever received an unsatisfactory evaluation during any pilot training, testing, or checking event?"

That includes stage checks if I am reading it correctly. Just imagine a LETU student filling out that form.

I would certainly concur with you that the wording in that question would consider a stage check a "checking event."

 

[USMCmech]

Even if you exceed PTS, that's not an automatic failure. The PTS is clear that it needs to be consistent deviation from standard. At least, if your check airman is doing it right that's the case...

Sadly there are many schools where even one momentary deviation equals a busted stage check.

I agree it's BS.

 

[SrFnFly227]

Sadly there are many schools where even one momentary deviation equals a busted stage check.

I agree it's BS.

Sadly true. I instructed at Riddle for a year after graduating. One of my instrument students called me after his Stage 2 check and explained that he had failed. I was shocked as he was really sharp and I had no concerns about his performance. Story of the failure goes as follows:

NDB approach (yeah, still did them at that time) in to New Smyrna. I don't remember exactly what my procedure was, but I had basically taught the student to descend to MDA for about 30 seconds and them climb back up to 50 feet above MDA until the missed approach point. Why fly along right at the MDA once you know that you could no longer make a safe descent to the runway? He did exactly that and even briefed the examiner why he was doing so. Examiner told him to descend back down, which my student did. Examiner then asks my student for his checklist, student looks down to grab the checklist and hands it to the examiner. When he looks back up, he's 20 feet below the MDA and he immediately goes missed. He failed for descending below MDA.

When I heard the story of why he failed, I set up a meeting with the Chief Pilot who then called in the examiner. Examiner admitted to exactly what my student had explained and the Chief Pilot agreed with me that it bogus. Unfortunately, the CP wouldn't overturn the examiner as my student had actually descended below the MDA.

I have lots of stories of why I hated Riddle. This has always been right up near the top of the list.

 

[JustinS]

Sadly true. I instructed at Riddle for a year after graduating. One of my instrument students called me after his Stage 2 check and explained that he had failed. I was shocked as he was really sharp and I had no concerns about his performance. Story of the failure goes as follows:

NDB approach (yeah, still did them at that time) in to New Smyrna. I don't remember exactly what my procedure was, but I had basically taught the student to descend to MDA for about 30 seconds and them climb back up to 50 feet above MDA until the missed approach point. Why fly along right at the MDA once you know that you could no longer make a safe descent to the runway. He did exactly that and even briefed the examiner why he was doing so. Examiner told him to descend back down, which my student did. Examiner then asks my student for his checklist, student looks down to grab the checklist and hands it to the examiner. When he looks back up, he's 20 feet below the MDA and he immediately goes missed. He failed for descending below MDA.

When I heard the story of why he failed, I set up a meeting with the Chief Pilot who then called in the examiner. Examiner admitted to exactly what my student had explained and the Chief Pilot agreed with me that it bogus. Unfortunately, the CP wouldn't overturn the examiner as my student had actually descended below the MDA.

I have lots of stories of why I hated Riddle. This has always been right up near the top of the list.

Wow that's ridiculous, but not surprising. Our school has instructors who will get a student like that. That's one of those times I'd hope that my student would say "No not right now, busy flying."

I've had students try to whip out a checklist at less than 1,000' AGL barreling down the ILS. Not a good idea...

 

[Ajax]

So, I was filling out my airlineapps.com forms today and came across this little gem from Envoy. "Have you ever received an unsatisfactory evaluation during any pilot training, testing, or checking event?"

That includes stage checks if I am reading it correctly. Just imagine a LETU student filling out that form.

I was asked this during my 121 interview. I think it's silly because there is often 0 standardization with these stage check CFIs, and no accountability. We had one CFI that would fail preprivate students on their lack of knowledge of ice fog at a school in Texas where we rarely get temps below 30

 

[dasleben]

I was recently talking to some ERAU guys that all had MANY failed check rides. One guy had 8 failures. They said that it was very common in their class to fail multiple times due to the examiners that ERAU used (in house). Can anyone confirm that this is true?

Granted, it was a while back, but I did the bulk of my ratings there and instructed there as well. PRC campus.

All of the guys/gals I knew who had multiple busts throughout the program had significant issues with their performance. I'm not a super pilot, and myself and many others managed to get through without a bust. Occasionally I saw hair-splitting stuff, but for the most part the failures were legitimate.