Diversion on the pp checkride
- Thread starter FrankieFlyCRQ
- Start date
FrankieFlyCRQ
Well-Known Member
Hey thanks alot. I also work over at SkyWest in the pm. Feel free to stop by if you'd like.
Good luck on your CFI!
FrankieFlyCRQ
Well-Known Member
Yes it is. My CFI is Abdel, cool people.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
I'm just glad to see you learned how to spell diversion! 
Seriously though, like others have said, turn to guesstimate heading first, then deal with the actual calculations of the divert location. Do that and you should have no problem.......not worried at all, sounds like you'll be fine!
Seriously though, like others have said, turn to guesstimate heading first, then deal with the actual calculations of the divert location. Do that and you should have no problem.......not worried at all, sounds like you'll be fine!
I'm a big fan of pilotage. Look on the chart, find the airport, find a way to get there (follow a river, follow a road, head towards that big lake), the just get there. Too many instructors make it into some big deal that gets students all worked up over nothing.
I don't know how many times I've been with a student doing stalls and crap, then said to him, "hey lets to go that small local airport nearby and do some touch and go's." Then the student looks outside, finds where he is, turns towards the field, tunes in the radio, starts a descent, and enters the pattern. That student did a diversion without even knowing it. Thats how a diversion should be done.
I don't know how many times I've been with a student doing stalls and crap, then said to him, "hey lets to go that small local airport nearby and do some touch and go's." Then the student looks outside, finds where he is, turns towards the field, tunes in the radio, starts a descent, and enters the pattern. That student did a diversion without even knowing it. Thats how a diversion should be done.
FrankieFlyCRQ
Well-Known Member
Ok now two things.
I asked my instructor about just turning to the general direction first, and then working out the calculations, and he didn't agree. He told me to just get the correct calculation before hand because i'm going to have to do it anyways, and then turn to it which doesn't make sense because then I asked him how I would get my GS using the e6b while in the air? His response was forget about the e6b, just use a compass rose for the heading, measure the distance with your fingers, I assume calculate time with how many miles it would be, and then figure out my gallons burned by knowing that if you burn 6 gallons an hour, or 1.5 every I think 15 min or 30 min somthin like that, then you dont need a e6b, it would just slow you down. ???
Ok but not turning to your alternate airport right away would also slow me down I was thinking but whatever, I didn't say anything.
Then I asked him ok, how would I get my GS in the air with the e6b? He said "forget about the GS for wind correction. In a real emergency no one is going to have time to figure out the wind corrections. Just know what the winds aloft is for the region, and know you will either have a tail wind , head wind, or no wind change depending on which direction I turn to".
So what do you guys think?? I feel good about using the plotter or the e6b during a diversion. Should I listen to my instructor on this one or just do what works best for me? Do you guys agree with what he is saying?
Let me know please.
One more thing, how would you calcuate your ground speed in the air with the e6b ?? I'm a little confused because the headings are already magnetic, so do I just add 13 to my true heading or just subtract 13 to my wind correction or????
I asked my instructor about just turning to the general direction first, and then working out the calculations, and he didn't agree. He told me to just get the correct calculation before hand because i'm going to have to do it anyways, and then turn to it which doesn't make sense because then I asked him how I would get my GS using the e6b while in the air? His response was forget about the e6b, just use a compass rose for the heading, measure the distance with your fingers, I assume calculate time with how many miles it would be, and then figure out my gallons burned by knowing that if you burn 6 gallons an hour, or 1.5 every I think 15 min or 30 min somthin like that, then you dont need a e6b, it would just slow you down. ???
Ok but not turning to your alternate airport right away would also slow me down I was thinking but whatever, I didn't say anything.Then I asked him ok, how would I get my GS in the air with the e6b? He said "forget about the GS for wind correction. In a real emergency no one is going to have time to figure out the wind corrections. Just know what the winds aloft is for the region, and know you will either have a tail wind , head wind, or no wind change depending on which direction I turn to".
So what do you guys think?? I feel good about using the plotter or the e6b during a diversion. Should I listen to my instructor on this one or just do what works best for me? Do you guys agree with what he is saying?
Let me know please.
One more thing, how would you calcuate your ground speed in the air with the e6b ?? I'm a little confused because the headings are already magnetic, so do I just add 13 to my true heading or just subtract 13 to my wind correction or????
Fly4Pay
New Member
If I had tried this on MY PPL checkride, the examiner would have said, "what the heck is a GPS?"
(OK... it was a few years ago!
)
flyguy
Well-Known Member
Yeah, absolutely. If you've got GPS most examiners will let you use it or any other resource available to find your airport. In fact, if you do have GPS you should use it first as it shows good judgement that you'd use your most accurate and easiest to use resource first. Make sure you know the old fassioned way though, because you may come across an examiner that will flip it off and say "whoops, GPS just failed, now what?".
First, read the diversion task in the PTS, and read page 14-27 of the pilots handbook of aeronautical knowledge.
If the diversion is due to an emergency, the PHAK says not to delay your turn to your alternate.
To get your GS in the air using you E6B, you have to time yourself from two known points. Once you have a time and a distance, you can calculate speed on the e6b. This is not recommended during a diversion because you do not have time. The PHAK says to make use of shortcuts/ rules of thumb.
On another note, haven't you been calculating GS in the air for your regular XCs? How have you been revising your time and fuel?
Use a rule of thumb/ pilotage to calculate your wind correction. Pilotage will probably get you better results.
If the diversion is due to an emergency, the PHAK says not to delay your turn to your alternate.
To get your GS in the air using you E6B, you have to time yourself from two known points. Once you have a time and a distance, you can calculate speed on the e6b. This is not recommended during a diversion because you do not have time. The PHAK says to make use of shortcuts/ rules of thumb.
On another note, haven't you been calculating GS in the air for your regular XCs? How have you been revising your time and fuel?
Use the compass rose because the headings are already converted to a magnetic heading.
Use a rule of thumb/ pilotage to calculate your wind correction. Pilotage will probably get you better results.
Bumblebee
Commodore
Ok now two things.
I asked my instructor about just turning to the general direction first, and then working out the calculations, and he didn't agree. He told me to just get the correct calculation before hand because i'm going to have to do it anyways, and then turn to it which doesn't make sense because then I asked him how I would get my GS using the e6b while in the air? His response was forget about the e6b, just use a compass rose for the heading, measure the distance with your fingers, I assume calculate time with how many miles it would be, and then figure out my gallons burned by knowing that if you burn 6 gallons an hour, or 1.5 every I think 15 min or 30 min somthin like that, then you dont need a e6b, it would just slow you down. ???
Then I asked him ok, how would I get my GS in the air with the e6b? He said "forget about the GS for wind correction. In a real emergency no one is going to have time to figure out the wind corrections. Just know what the winds aloft is for the region, and know you will either have a tail wind , head wind, or no wind change depending on which direction I turn to".
So what do you guys think?? I feel good about using the plotter or the e6b during a diversion. Should I listen to my instructor on this one or just do what works best for me? Do you guys agree with what he is saying?
Let me know please.
One more thing, how would you calcuate your ground speed in the air with the e6b ?? I'm a little confused because the headings are already magnetic, so do I just add 13 to my true heading or just subtract 13 to my wind correction or????
Your instructor may know what theis particular DPE wants . . . but in a real emergency remember, "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast".
Initially get the turn in so you are heading in the general direction towards a safe place to land. Remember that at 120 kts you are going 1 mile away from safety every 30 seconds that you do not turn towards the diversion airport. (Imagine it taking 20 seconds to get the accurate heading to the airport and coming up short by a 1/2 mile! )
Then prioritize and work the problem. (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate)Use the time you have to fix the problem, evaluate the solution and gain as much information about your current situation as possible. If you can demonstrate these abilities, you will pass your checkride. Good Luck, let us know how it goes.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
Here's a quick thing that could help with your distance calculations. I used to have my students measure what 10 miles was on the pen/pencil they always used was. From the eraser up to some letter on the pencil for instance.
I always felt the diversion was one of the best ways to judge the progress of a student with their cross country training. If you can pull off a good diversion it shows you knew where you were and could think "on the fly."
And as an aside, even at the airline level the diversion requires alot of attention. Of course it's easy to figure out how to get to our new destination airport, but there are alot of other variables envolved. And usually you're thinking about diverting for some time before it occurs...Once I start into a hold with a long EFC time, I'm thinking about where else we could go...Or approaching an airport with snotty weather, I have a plan B/C in my head. Even en route I'm constantly keeping track of a "suitable" airport to land at...In flight fire for instance I'm looking for an airport CLOSE....I'll put the plane on 4,000' of pavement, an in-flight shut down of an engine (not-catostrophic) would have me thinking of a different diversion airport. But I'm always thinking of where else I might have to go, the airport's suitability (customs, mechanics, fuel) etc..It's part of being a professional pilot.
Sorry I got off on a tangent, but I just hope everyone realizes that this maneuver is just as relevant as learning an ILS or crosswind landing.
I always felt the diversion was one of the best ways to judge the progress of a student with their cross country training. If you can pull off a good diversion it shows you knew where you were and could think "on the fly."
And as an aside, even at the airline level the diversion requires alot of attention. Of course it's easy to figure out how to get to our new destination airport, but there are alot of other variables envolved. And usually you're thinking about diverting for some time before it occurs...Once I start into a hold with a long EFC time, I'm thinking about where else we could go...Or approaching an airport with snotty weather, I have a plan B/C in my head. Even en route I'm constantly keeping track of a "suitable" airport to land at...In flight fire for instance I'm looking for an airport CLOSE....I'll put the plane on 4,000' of pavement, an in-flight shut down of an engine (not-catostrophic) would have me thinking of a different diversion airport. But I'm always thinking of where else I might have to go, the airport's suitability (customs, mechanics, fuel) etc..It's part of being a professional pilot.
Sorry I got off on a tangent, but I just hope everyone realizes that this maneuver is just as relevant as learning an ILS or crosswind landing.
FrankieFlyCRQ
Well-Known Member
Hey thanks everyone for the awesome feedback!
I will let everyone know how it goes. Thanks again.
I will let everyone know how it goes. Thanks again.
caliginousface
Frank N. Beans
One of the few things I liked at Erby Diddle was the diversion.
Take your pen, do the VOR compass rose thing for the heading. Then, find mileage from your reference point (or wherever you are) to the airport, and divide by 2.
Why 2? Well 172's and the like are moving at about 2nm/min (if your groundspeed is 120KTS, 1.5nm/min if it's 90KTS). You divide the mileage by 2 and you end up getting time.
I was amazed how accurate this was, my diversion was within 1 degree and within 1 minute when clicking "Direct" on the GPS.
Take your pen, do the VOR compass rose thing for the heading. Then, find mileage from your reference point (or wherever you are) to the airport, and divide by 2.
Why 2? Well 172's and the like are moving at about 2nm/min (if your groundspeed is 120KTS, 1.5nm/min if it's 90KTS). You divide the mileage by 2 and you end up getting time.
I was amazed how accurate this was, my diversion was within 1 degree and within 1 minute when clicking "Direct" on the GPS.
USMC-SSGT
Well-Known Member
if your checkride is with Mr Hill or Mr Defrancesco (yes I can say their names online, dpes are public knowledge) both of them will want you to turn right away to the approximate heading of your destination, just ballpark it. Once on approximate heading it will not be hard to get an exact heading. Look outside the window and find a prominant landmark from between your 10 to 2 o'clock and no more than a few miles away and get your distance and heading from there.
why? Im glad you asked....by turning to your approximate heading you are already somewhat on your way so that buys you some time. Now, why do we pick a prominant ground reference to do our calculations? Im glad you asked again, you are catching on....Because it is much more simple and accurate to pick a landmark that you can get a no kidding distance and heading from not to mention it gives you the mile or so it takes you to get there to calculate what you need without having to circle or get more lost then you potentially already were.
as for groundspeed, first just take out your whiz wheel and if you know the winds aloft (you should) you can calculate a rough estimate based on your indicated airspeed and the winds and then tell the examiner that it will take you x amount of minutes to get to your destination and let your examiner know that you will have a more accurate reading momentarily along your route, he will be ok with this. So now....once you pass your point that you are referencing as your start position just jot down your time and then pick another landmark a few miles along your path and write down the time you cross it. Now you have the distance traveled and the time it took you so you can compute that into groundspeed and give the examiner a more accurate estimated time of arrival
now the great news. If you just turn to the initial heading and tell him how you will get there, compute up a rough estimate on the estimated time of arrival that will satisfy the examiner and he will definately move on to the next task. Your examiner is going to make 450 bucks for this ride whether it is 3 hours or 1.4 so he is shooting for the 1.4, if you are competent and do the right things and look competent he will move right on.
Have faith in your instructor because he can at least teach you to fly as good as he can but also remember that there are better ways to do somethings and if you tactfully suggest that you try another method because it makes more sense to you he will at least owe you the explanation of why he does or does not want you to do that. Just remember, instructors do not know everything and I have had students prove me wrong a few times.
regardless of your examiner tell them I said hello, I have had about 3-4 rides with each of them. Both awesome guys
why? Im glad you asked....by turning to your approximate heading you are already somewhat on your way so that buys you some time. Now, why do we pick a prominant ground reference to do our calculations? Im glad you asked again, you are catching on....Because it is much more simple and accurate to pick a landmark that you can get a no kidding distance and heading from not to mention it gives you the mile or so it takes you to get there to calculate what you need without having to circle or get more lost then you potentially already were.
as for groundspeed, first just take out your whiz wheel and if you know the winds aloft (you should) you can calculate a rough estimate based on your indicated airspeed and the winds and then tell the examiner that it will take you x amount of minutes to get to your destination and let your examiner know that you will have a more accurate reading momentarily along your route, he will be ok with this. So now....once you pass your point that you are referencing as your start position just jot down your time and then pick another landmark a few miles along your path and write down the time you cross it. Now you have the distance traveled and the time it took you so you can compute that into groundspeed and give the examiner a more accurate estimated time of arrival
now the great news. If you just turn to the initial heading and tell him how you will get there, compute up a rough estimate on the estimated time of arrival that will satisfy the examiner and he will definately move on to the next task. Your examiner is going to make 450 bucks for this ride whether it is 3 hours or 1.4 so he is shooting for the 1.4, if you are competent and do the right things and look competent he will move right on.
Have faith in your instructor because he can at least teach you to fly as good as he can but also remember that there are better ways to do somethings and if you tactfully suggest that you try another method because it makes more sense to you he will at least owe you the explanation of why he does or does not want you to do that. Just remember, instructors do not know everything and I have had students prove me wrong a few times.
regardless of your examiner tell them I said hello, I have had about 3-4 rides with each of them. Both awesome guys
FlySmiley
New Member
Here's the easiest way, call up ATC and ask for vectors.
I know first hand of someone who did this on their PPL checkride and the examiner loved it. Another guy I know when he was on his multiengine checkride made the examiner part of his crew when the engine failed. That showed good CRM and what not, again the examiner loved it. It breaks from the standard, but shows very practical thinking for a PRACTICAL checkride. If they don't want that, they will tell you.
I know first hand of someone who did this on their PPL checkride and the examiner loved it. Another guy I know when he was on his multiengine checkride made the examiner part of his crew when the engine failed. That showed good CRM and what not, again the examiner loved it. It breaks from the standard, but shows very practical thinking for a PRACTICAL checkride. If they don't want that, they will tell you.
FrankieFlyCRQ
Well-Known Member
I feel better with just turning to the direction of the airport, doing my calcuations on the way there with my e6b. Pretty much exactly what you said. I have the pleasure of doing my checkride with Mr. Russ. I have heard nothing but good things about him.
Did you have Mr. Defrancesco for your examiner for the ppl ? If so what did he have you do for your ppl checkride? What did he ask from you for the diversion? Just wondering.. a little nervous but ready!!!
USMC-SSGT
Well-Known Member
He was my DPE for my instrument, commerical single and multi and cfi
For my diversion in my commercial he had me turn to where I was going first and he was ok with rule of thumb and best estimates to get me there.
He is really easy going just listen to what he has to say and agree and you will be fine
For my diversion in my commercial he had me turn to where I was going first and he was ok with rule of thumb and best estimates to get me there.
He is really easy going just listen to what he has to say and agree and you will be fine