Dispatching without an alternate

Tuesnightshenanigans

Tuesnightshenanigans

Well-Known Member
I know everyone works at different shops with different rules but think Part 121 Flag for this. A flight is planned in Europe, 1.5 hours, and this is your WX:

TAF EDDP 151700Z 1518/1618 36005KT CAVOK

Do you add an alternate? And if you don't and the captain asks "will you please redo my plan and add an alternate because I don't feel comfortable going without one," do you do it?


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What are the trends? Origin and surrounding WX?

My favorite question to ask is "Are you seeing something I do not?"

Ultimately it's joint responsibility and if he doesn't want to go without it he doesn't want to. I do like to semi challenge why they are asking and also to make sure nothing is missed.
 
TN-DX said:
What are the trends? Origin and surrounding WX?

My favorite question to ask is "Are you seeing something I do not?"

Ultimately it's joint responsibility and if he doesn't want to go without it he doesn't want to. I do like to semi challenge why they are asking and also to make sure nothing is missed.
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It's been CAVOK all day pretty much. High pressure throughout Europe. I think for me, it boils down to not trusting you as a dispatcher. That rustles my jimmies for some reason. Take in mind, we did just go from Supplemental to Domestic/Flag a year ago and some guys can't shake the no alternate deal.


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1.5 hour flight and that's the TAF. Assuming the metars back it up, no alternate planned.

If captain calls and wants an alternate... I ask why he's uncomfortable, depending on my mood p, with a varying level of snark. For example, "what did I miss that's making you question a no alternate release to parallel runways with multiple CAT 2/3 approaches available?" More often than not, I'll add the alternate in the end, but I want to feel the point has been made.

I'm assuming this really happened? Did the captain aphave a reasoning for the discomfort?
 
McCrosky said:
1.5 hour flight and that's the TAF. Assuming the metars back it up, no alternate planned.

If captain calls and wants an alternate... I ask why he's uncomfortable, depending on my mood p, with a varying level of snark. For example, "what did I miss that's making you question a no alternate release to parallel runways with multiple CAT 2/3 approaches available?" More often than not, I'll add the alternate in the end, but I want to feel the point has been made.

I'm assuming this really happened? Did the captain aphave a reasoning for the discomfort?
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Don't know yet. I am not in the office anymore. Like I had said above, it might have something to do with going from Supplemental to Domestic/Flag. I feel like if there's a legit concern for an alternate, awesome, no issue with that. I'd add it.


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CS0290 said:
Don't know yet. I am not in the office anymore. Like I had said above, it might have something to do with going from Supplemental to Domestic/Flag. I feel like if there's a legit concern for an alternate, awesome, no issue with that. I'd add it.


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More than likely it is the swap from Supp to Flag. A lot of our guys aren't comfortable with change after they've been flying one way for years and then out of the blue it's a small tweak to SOP.

Like I said before I would challenge the request. If he is adamant on having one then he will end up getting one.
 
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Technically speaking, you don't add an alternate. 121.619 says is that you must list an alternate for every destination. The reg. then goes on to say: "However...1-2-3..." So, you are not looking for a reason to add an alternate. You're looking for a reason to leave one off. A subtle distinction perhaps, but I think it's an important one.

I dislike that use of the word "comfortable." As professionals we ought to be able to articulate exactly why we dislike a situation. What I would like to say in response is something like "You're not being paid to be comfortable; you're paid to do the job. Now go do it, or tell me exactly why you can't." Instead I say something along the lines of "let's take a took at this together..."
 
Flying Saluki said:
Technically speaking, you don't add an alternate. 121.619 says is that you must list an alternate for every destination. The reg. then goes on to say: "However...1-2-3..." So, you are not looking for a reason to add an alternate. You're looking for a reason to leave one off. A subtle distinction perhaps, but I think it's an important one.

I dislike that use of the word "comfortable." As professionals we ought to be able to articulate exactly why we dislike a situation. What I would like to say in response is something like "You're not being paid to be comfortable; you're paid to do the job. Now go do it, or tell me exactly why you can't." Instead I say something along the lines of "let's take a took at this together..."
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The word "comfortable" is used because I believe it's one of those key words in CRM "uhh hey captain, I'm not really comfortable considering that checklist complete"
 
CS0290 said:
I know everyone works at different shops with different rules but think Part 121 Flag for this. A flight is planned in Europe, 1.5 hours, and this is your WX:

TAF EDDP 151700Z 1518/1618 36005KT CAVOK

Do you add an alternate? And if you don't and the captain asks "will you please redo my plan and add an alternate because I don't feel comfortable going without one," do you do it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
If the captain asks, of course you do it. There's no reason to argue with him about it... whatever gets them off the phone.
 
Are these airports regular airports in the opsepcs? Scheduled flight? 121 Revenue? Reposition? While possible, it just seems to me that a 1.5hr flight WITHIN Europe isn't something that would be regular service for a 121 carrier.

While the weather says not needed, some other factors may say it is. Need more info.

Now to answer your question if the captain asked would I do it? Yeah I would. Its easier to just give him EDDN/EDDK or EDDS and just get it over with rather than try to convince him to go against a decision hes already made.
 
Flying Saluki said:
Technically speaking, you don't add an alternate. 121.619 says is that you must list an alternate for every destination. The reg. then goes on to say: "However...1-2-3..." So, you are not looking for a reason to add an alternate. You're looking for a reason to leave one off. A subtle distinction perhaps, but I think it's an important one.
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I'm glad you mentioned it actually. I got my ticket a year ago and only recently (literally a few days ago) realized that I was taught this reg backwards. It really changed the way I look at things, so I agree that although it is a subtle distinction, it is important.
 
Flying Saluki said:
Technically speaking, you don't add an alternate. 121.619 says is that you must list an alternate for every destination. The reg. then goes on to say: "However...1-2-3..." So, you are not looking for a reason to add an alternate. You're looking for a reason to leave one off. A subtle distinction perhaps, but I think it's an important one.

I dislike that use of the word "comfortable." As professionals we ought to be able to articulate exactly why we dislike a situation. What I would like to say in response is something like "You're not being paid to be comfortable; you're paid to do the job. Now go do it, or tell me exactly why you can't." Instead I say something along the lines of "let's take a took at this together..."
Click to expand...

Since we're going flag, 121.621 doesn't have a however, if is a " must list at least one alternate unless..." So minor distinction in grammar. But the problem I really have is once we add the alternate, the strong majority of out pilots seems to believe they have to land with X amount at the alternate. So now we are more fuel on top of alternate burn because the crew believes they must land with 75 minutes of fuel in the tanks at the alternate. In the case above, there's the potential that you've doubled the fuel at landing for "comfort". Since I've been taught safe, legal, and economical (in that order) is my job. Just doing my job

All that said, I think there is a "comfort" factor, but just using the word comfort doesn't mean you shouldn't have a good solid factual reasoning behind it. There are certain unique challenges that happen and specific places the crews may be aware of and I'm not. But you should be able to explain that and not just say "I'm uncomfortable".

bushpilot87 said:
If the captain asks, of course you do it. There's no reason to argue with him about it... whatever gets them off the phone.
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No where in my job description does it say I'm expected or required to get a captain off.

777Boner said:
Are these airports regular airports in the opsepcs? Scheduled flight? 121 Revenue? Reposition? While possible, it just seems to me that a 1.5hr flight WITHIN Europe isn't something that would be regular service for a 121 carrier.

While the weather says not needed, some other factors may say it is. Need more info.

Now to answer your question if the captain asked would I do it? Yeah I would. Its easier to just give him EDDN/EDDK or EDDS and just get it over with rather than try to convince him to go against a decision hes already made.
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It doesn't have to be regular service to use flag rules. We do lots of charters/repos between C70 airports released under domestic/flag rules (as appropriate). The OP, according to profile, is a cargo person. We tend to do a lot more point to point outside the US. Both FDX and UPS have extensive inter region networks, similar to old days of pax service when United and Northwest had extensive NRT hubs or Pan Ams Frankfurt hub ops.

And then if you just start appeasing captains, the next one wants an alternate, then the next, and then the next one wants an alternate plus 60 minutes. Before you know, you've given up Czechoslovakia to Hitler in the name of appeasement, and we know how that turned out!
 
McCrosky said:
Since we're going flag, 121.621 doesn't have a however, if is a " must list at least one alternate unless..." So minor distinction in grammar. But the problem I really have is once we add the alternate, the strong majority of out pilots seems to believe they have to land with X amount at the alternate. So now we are more fuel on top of alternate burn because the crew believes they must land with 75 minutes of fuel in the tanks at the alternate. In the case above, there's the potential that you've doubled the fuel at landing for "comfort". Since I've been taught safe, legal, and economical (in that order) is my job. Just doing my job

All that said, I think there is a "comfort" factor, but just using the word comfort doesn't mean you shouldn't have a good solid factual reasoning behind it. There are certain unique challenges that happen and specific places the crews may be aware of and I'm not. But you should be able to explain that and not just say "I'm uncomfortable".



No where in my job description does it say I'm expected or required to get a captain off.



It doesn't have to be regular service to use flag rules. We do lots of charters/repos between C70 airports released under domestic/flag rules (as appropriate). The OP, according to profile, is a cargo person. We tend to do a lot more point to point outside the US. Both FDX and UPS have extensive inter region networks, similar to old days of pax service when United and Northwest had extensive NRT hubs or Pan Ams Frankfurt hub ops.

And then if you just start appeasing captains, the next one wants an alternate, then the next, and then the next one wants an alternate plus 60 minutes. Before you know, you've given up Czechoslovakia to Hitler in the name of appeasement, and we know how that turned out!
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That's my point. Give a little and they'll start taking A LOT.


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McCrosky said:
It doesn't have to be regular service to use flag rules. We do lots of charters/repos between C70 airports released under domestic/flag rules (as appropriate). The OP, according to profile, is a cargo person. We tend to do a lot more point to point outside the US. Both FDX and UPS have extensive inter region networks, similar to old days of pax service when United and Northwest had extensive NRT hubs or Pan Ams Frankfurt hub ops.
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I don't think you got the point of my post. He just threw up a TAF and said would you put one on. I wanted to know more details. I have done supplemental and scheduled 121 service all over the world, so I know the game. That doesn't mean an alternate isn't required depending on what opspec approval you have. For us, an inter-Europe flight, regardless of whatever plan is planned (Flag, B044,/43/343) would require and alternate between two non-regular, non-scheduled ops airports, regardless of the weather.
And then if you just start appeasing captains, the next one wants an alternate, then the next, and then the next one wants an alternate plus 60 minutes. Before you know, you've given up Czechoslovakia to Hitler in the name of appeasement, and we know how that turned out!
Click to expand...

If the captain asked me "will you please redo my plan and add an alternate because I don't feel comfortable going without one", that there in itself is good enough reason for me to add one. Why argue? His reason is he doesn't feel comfortable. I myself am guilty of the same feeling. You can what-if yourself into any future captain situation, in the end it most likely isn't going to change his mind, and instead of working on your next plan you just wasted time in a pissing match.

Look, I am not saying he should have one based on the weather. Its pretty ridiculous considering its CAVOK so I get it. One captains worry is another's adventure. If he wants it fine. When I release the next one without one and he takes it, well good.

Just all part of the game.
 
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777Boner said:
I don't think you got the point of my post. He just threw up a TAF and said would you put one on. I wanted to know more details. I have done supplemental and scheduled 121 service all over the world, so I know the game. That doesn't mean an alternate isn't required depending on what opspec approval you have. For us, an inter-Europe flight, regardless of whatever plan is planned (Flag, B044,/43/343) would require and alternate between two non-regular, non-scheduled ops airports, regardless of the weather.


If the captain asked me "will you please redo my plan and add an alternate because I don't feel comfortable going without one", that there in itself is good enough reason for me to add one. Why argue? His reason is he doesn't feel comfortable. I myself am guilty of the same feeling. You can what-if yourself into any future captain situation, in the end it most likely isn't going to change his mind, and instead of working on your next plan you just wasted time in a pissing match.

Look, I am not saying he should have one based on the weather. Its pretty ridiculous considering its CAVOK so I get it. One captains worry is another's adventure. If he wants it fine. When I release the next one without one and he takes it, well good.

Just all part of the game.
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This particular flight was 121 Flag and both airports in C070 as regular airports. It's a regularly scheduled flight. If a captain repeats asking for an alternate regardless of the circumstances, you just add it without questioning it, just because they asked for it?


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This happens still at my airline domestically. I've dispatched too long and don't care if a captain calls and wants one. I politely ask if I missed something first. If they respond 'I'm just not comfortable' then that's fine. If we have the room it just takes literally a minute to send new paperwork and make the captain happy. He is the one flying the airplane and the last thing I want is for them to be distracted by not having an alternate.
 
777Boner said:
While possible, it just seems to me that a 1.5hr flight WITHIN Europe isn't something that would be regular service for a 121 carrier.
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We do tons of intra Europe flying. While an alternate is not needed due to the wx, I'm going to have a conversation about why they feel the need for an alternate. Perhaps there are other factors that I'm not aware of that he/she can bring to light. Or perhaps there is only one runway open at the destination and the pilot is one who says, "well what if we get there and..." Factors other than the wx can come into play. It's all about having a conversation and coming to a mutual decision. Maybe giving a little extra fuel can do the trick, maybe throwing on a alternate. If there wasn't any logical reason for requesting one, and it was going to cause us to leave payload behind, I'd definitely try to come to some sort of compromise so everybody wins. Something as simple as a little extra fuel will make them more "comfortable".
 
womanpilot73 said:
We do tons of intra Europe flying. While an alternate is not needed due to the wx, I'm going to have a conversation about why they feel the need for an alternate. Perhaps there are other factors that I'm not aware of that he/she can bring to light. Or perhaps there is only one runway open at the destination and the pilot is one who says, "well what if we get there and..." Factors other than the wx can come into play. It's all about having a conversation and coming to a mutual decision. Maybe giving a little extra fuel can do the trick, maybe throwing on a alternate. If there wasn't any logical reason for requesting one, and it was going to cause us to leave payload behind, I'd definitely try to come to some sort of compromise so everybody wins. Something as simple as a little extra fuel will make them more "comfortable".
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So maybe I should provide even more detail. There was about 20 minutes of extra fuel added. And we are cargo so extra fuel does mean carrying less payload. However, this happened after I turned over my flight so I couldn't have the conversation myself. My relief did that part and this pilot still refused simply because he always wants an alternate, regardless of the circumstances. There's a bigger point I'm trying to prove with this. I know other factors are involved. But when a pilot can't explain why or even bother to have the conversation without demanding the alternate be added and he/she won't go without it, that's what bugs me.


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