Different students, same problem areas?

shdw said:
You didn't answer my question before though bud, what is it that you use to keep yourself coordinated when you do your stall entry?
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I make a conscious effort to apply enough rudder pressure to keep the ball centered, but what's odd is that even with that, sometimes I end up in a slow turn as AOA increases and airspeed bleeds off instead of wings level. Or unwillingly entering a bank at a high AOA while waiting for the stall to finally happen, not good!

I thought maybe I was turning/clutching the yoke so tight that the plane was being forced into a bank. The problem, per CFI, turned out to be that I was maybe taking too long to go ahead and increase pitch to the critical AOA (trying to delay the not-so-fun moment when the nose actually drops). I'm working on making sure I pitch up enough and in a smooth and rather prompt manner so that there isn't time for the plane to start "drifting" on me.

Also need to watch my recoveries to make sure we stay on the original heading. It's all to easy to turn while pitching for the horizon.

Thank-you!
 
HelloCentral said:
I've been wondering about this...as far as airwork goes, have you found that certain elements of flight training are hard for most of your students, or does each one tend to struggle with a different set of difficulties?They are all different.

I'm working on my commercial, and stalls are killing me. Not much trouble with them during private, but a couple of years later and in a high wing plane I'm struggling with coordination and fear.
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What airplane are you doing these stalls in?

Have your instructor do a "floating leaf" stall. (It is really just series of secondary stalls.)
 
Douglas said:
What airplane are you doing these stalls in?

Have your instructor do a "floating leaf" stall. (It is really just series of secondary stalls.)
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Do you mean falling leaf?


HelloCentral, get your damn head outside and off the instruments!!! :D Do a steeper vertical up-line, sit back, relax as though you were at your house watching TV and compare each wing to the horizon. If you put each wing tip exactly the same distance from the horizon you will stall and fall straight down every single time 100 percent guaranteed. Learn to feel the aircraft, see the nose drifting off center, scanning your wing tips for symmetry and you will find stalls a much easier and more fun.

When aerobatic pilots are taught to fly an up-line, comparing the wing tips is how they are taught to stay coordinated. Loosing yourself in the instruments, which often aren't even accurate in the case of stall entry, will only distract you from the beauty of visually flying an aircraft. Good luck bud.


Edit: A falling leaf is a demonstration where you enter a stall and instead of releasing back pressure you keep the stick back at your chest, keeping the aircraft in stalled flight. In a cessna and piper you will need to carry about 1800 RPMs to keep the maneuver in check.

While keeping the stick back you alternate rudders to keep the aircraft from dropping its wing, do not touch those ailerons!!! When you are finished with the demonstration however, I recommend trying to use the ailerons to control the roll. This will result in a violent wing stall which will put you in a vertical, partially inverted, depending on loading, dive.

Recover from that dive with idle power, wings level, and a gradual pull back. It really solidifies the idea that rudder is THE ONLY control you should ever use in stalled flight.
 
This simple maneuver got me much more comfortable with stalls.

I like to get some extra altitude, go for a power-on stall where I end up with the yoke all the way back in my gut, hold it there and just ride the stall down. Small aileron and rudder corrections on the way down. Relax back pressure and you are back off to the races. This works very well in a 172SP with the CG just a little forward.

Then get a good instructor up with you in a 150 or 152 and spin the day away! Until your stomach, bladder, wallet, or fuel have had enough.
 
shdw said:
Do you mean falling leaf?
While keeping the stick back you alternate rudders to keep the aircraft from dropping its wing, do not touch those ailerons!!! When you are finished with the demonstration however, I recommend trying to use the ailerons to control the roll. This will result in a violent wing stall which will put you in a vertical, partially inverted, depending on loading, dive.
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I didn't read this before I posted. I have not had the described "violent wing stall" when doing this from a full power (departure) stall using small, coordinated, aileron & rudder corrections.
 
StogieC said:
I like to get some extra altitude, go for a power-on stall where I end up with the yoke all the way back in my gut, hold it there and just ride the stall down. Small aileron and rudder corrections on the way down.[/I]
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NOOOOOOOO Leave those ailerons alone. :) See posts above others and myself explained this maneuver, called a falling leaf.

I forgot to mention for some extra elevator control you can slam that trim wheel a few turns back to if you are really nose heavy.
 
StogieC said:
I didn't read this before I posted. I have not had the described "violent wing stall" when doing this from a full power (departure) stall using small, coordinated, aileron & rudder corrections.
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The purpose of the demo is to be in a full stall and unfortunately in trainers it really doesn't get as stalled as it should. You also have to consider the stall propagation of a square wing is forward root to reward tip so the ailerons stall last. That coupled with wing twist makes it very difficult to fully stall a trainer wing.

Non the less teaching to use any aileron usage in stalled flight is a severely horrible form of instruction. Other more complex aircraft with rounded wings that stall leading edge to trailing edge, or later delta wings that stall from the tips inward, use of ailerons will almost certainly make things much worse.

There are two purposes for the falling leaf: demonstrate that rudder will cause the desired corrective action and that ailerons will only further stall the wing causing the opposite. By this I mean using right aileron in a stall will only act to raise the AOA of the right wing further stalling that wing and thus causing a left bank, opposite what the unknowing pilot expects.


Edit: Just saw your point taken part, sorry wasn't intending to beat a dead horse.
 
shdw said:
Just saw your point taken part, sorry wasn't intending to beat a dead horse.
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I don't see it as smacking the ol' dead horse around at all. You may have just spared me a future unexpected departure from controlled flight. And that just can't be fun...
 
I second the falling leaf, to be followed by a good lesson on spins and spin recoveries. If done with an experienced instructor in an approved airplane, spins can be very educational and fun.:rawk:
 
Thanks guys for all your help, I finally nailed 'em. Just started the "complex" segment of my training...the school's complex also has 235 HPs, so we'll see how stalls go in that! :) Putting off spins for now, until after my comm checkride :-)
 
To me it seems like all my students initially struggle with positive control of the aircraft, and then once they have that down, they each have their own problems.

One of my students can't seem to understand that the rudder is mandatory, moreover how important it actually is.

Another doesn't like turning the aircraft.

Yet another doesn't seem to have much of a problem except for one thing: the aircraft we fly in keeps breaking down in the middle of flight and results in me taking the flight controls and explaining emergency procedures as I deal with them (ex: engine failure, loss of comms, etc).

Heck, I know that I was frustrating for my instructors, I despised stalls and didn't want to do them at all.
 
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