DHS claims pilots have no right to refuse search!

drunkenbeagle said:
Boats can be searched for safety and fishing/game inspections, your person is really the only secure thing there. I have no idea about the case law on aircraft, but most of that is probably federal..
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Aircraft searches fall under the same requirement for PC as any other conveyance, barring being at a Functional Border Equivalent as your first landing point when entering the US (airport of entry), then it's the same as being searched at the border. That's for search. For simple document check, 14 CFR 61.3(l) provisions apply.

Insofar as something you possess being under a gag order or NDA, wouldn't there be some sort of official paperwork accompanying it that would identify it specifically as such? Otherwise I would think that anyone could make that claim willy-nilly about anything.
 
MikeD said:
Insofar as something you possess being under a gag order or NDA, wouldn't there be some sort of official paperwork accompanying it that would identify it specifically as such? Otherwise I would think that anyone could make that claim willy-nilly about anything.
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No, nothing I have ever worried about carrying with me. I wouldn't have anything to show anyone generally, as those agreements are usually secret in nature to begin with - they tend to stay with the lawyers.

As to anyone making that claim - there isn't any really good reason to look through someone's papers either, I think calling a judge or lawyer first is reasonable if someone being searched names them and requests it.

Really, the only time it has come up with me is when TSA has asked to look through papers and I have said no. Saying my employer doesn't want it seen has always shut them up, but kind of troubling that they were trying to look through my notes in the first place.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
No, nothing I have ever worried about carrying with me. I wouldn't have anything to show anyone generally, as those agreements are usually secret in nature to begin with - they tend to stay with the lawyers.

As to anyone making that claim - there isn't any really good reason to look through someone's papers either, I think calling a judge or lawyer first is reasonable if someone being searched names them and requests it.

Really, the only time it has come up with me is when TSA has asked to look through papers and I have said no. Saying my employer doesn't want it seen has always shut them up, but kind of troubling that they were trying to look through my notes in the first place.
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I was asking the question; that is, if something such as a container is in fact some sort of NDA, wouldn't there be some kind of documentation stating as such? Otherwise what's to keep anyone from saying anything is proprietary in some way or otherwise making that claim about any piece of merchandise or container? Although weird that anyone would want to look through basic paperwork anyway; I wouldn't know why anyone would care about that in any general sense.
 
MikeD said:
I was asking the question; that is, if something such as a container is in fact some sort of NDA, wouldn't there be some kind of documentation stating as such? Otherwise what's to keep anyone from saying anything is proprietary in some way or otherwise making that claim about any piece of merchandise or container? Although weird that anyone would want to look through basic paperwork anyway; I wouldn't know why anyone would care about that in any general sense.
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Engineering samples (I'm not carrying the new iPhone, but sometimes things of equally high value to someone).

Most often for me though, it is paperwork, and only TSA has ever tried to look at it. In their case, honestly, I believe it was entirely because they had no idea what they were supposed to be doing.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Engineering samples (I'm not carrying the new iPhone, but sometimes things of equally high value to someone).

Most often for me though, it is paperwork, and only TSA has ever tried to look at it. In their case, honestly, I believe it was entirely because they had no idea what they were supposed to be doing.
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They probably didn't know. To me, unless there's some kind of specific intelligence on a person about specific paperwork they're carrying that contains some specific kind of information within regarding criminal activity; then paperwork in general falls under the "not the droids we're looking for" category during a basic search. And if there was specific intelligence on a specific person about a specific thing, I would think a warrant would also be accompanying any law enforcement search of them.
 
z987k said:
This is what AOPA recommends.

http://www.aopa.org/-/media/Files/AOPA/Home/News/All News/2013/June/CBPGuidelinesKneeboard.pdf
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One note for Step 6 that should be included is that if at an Airport of Entry and you are clearing Customs upon arrival into the USA, that a routine search may or may not be initiated, and it doesn't require consent or any probable cause, as the AOE is considered a Functional Border Equivalent for purposes of entering the USA. While this may seem obvious, I still think it should be included on the card because there will be many who don't know this or claim not to

Otherwise, for Step 6, normal probable cause requirements (or a warrant) apply for any search of an aircraft.

Steps 1-3 are easy enough. And it should end at Step 4 for any kind of ramp check of documents. Step 5 is easy enough too if one really wants the info.
 
What is interesting is they're saying a citation covertly follows you. What if you're in a SE piston... and what if you land on 1500ft of dirt. Do citations do 50 knots well?
I'm thinking in my head how fun it would be to troll someone who is following you in a citation. Oh you go 500 kts? Well how about this gravel bar with no road access that'd take 6 days to hike to. I'm sure they could call a chopper, but you know got to make em work for it.
 
z987k said:
What is interesting is they're saying a citation covertly follows you. What if you're in a SE piston... and what if you land on 1500ft of dirt. Do citations do 50 knots well?
I'm thinking in my head how fun it would be to troll someone who is following you in a citation. Oh you go 500 kts? Well how about this gravel bar with no road access that'd take 6 days to hike to. I'm sure they could call a chopper, but you know got to make em work for it.
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From what I know of the operation it would be rare to actually see the citation while you were in the air. I believe it house sensors used for higher altitude observation. It provides surveillance and directs slower moving fixed wing or helo's to the target location. Or they can contact local LEO's and have them meet the target aircraft at the point of landing. What I always knew about the program, they were pretty much flying the borders and watching for low level border crossers or tracking boats off Florida and the gulf. Up until now I had never heard of them patrolling any where near the center of the country. I'm sure there are others here that know more about it then myself.
 
PositionAndHold said:
MikeD

Here's a couple links with first hand accounts of what has been taking place during these stops. Let me know what you think when you have a couple mins.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national...-security-state-more-airplane-stories/276018/

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/...detained-searched-for-mysterious-reasons.aspx
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The first one, one glaring error by Mr Gaines:

"I then respectfully let him know that he really did not have authority to conduct ramp checks, as that is within the sole purview of the FAA (which I believe is correct - I do realize pilots must produce pilot certificates when requested by local law enforcement officers, but I do not believe we are required to produce any other documents.)"

Mr Gaines needs to read up on 14 CFR 61.3(l) again, as it relates to medical and such items as a photo ID also, not just the certificate itself, so in terms of a document check, any LEO agency can do a ramp check. All pilots need to be aware of this.

In terms of what Mr Gaines and Mr Phillips, going simply by what they've written, were stopped for, the only thing I can think of is that either their aircraft or something associated with it, may have been flagged for some reason by federal/state/local law enforcement; what that reason is, I would of course have no idea. From what they describe, nothing appears out of order, but I also don't know any backstory from the government side either. It'd be interesting to know what that might be.
 
I knew the guy that flew the Citation out of GFK, played hockey with him. They could put it into slow flight and keep pace with most of your garden variety bugsmashers as long as said bugsmashers were at cruise speeds. If they needed to talk to someone they'd fly alongside and put a big poster with "121.5" in the windshield.
 
MikeD said:
The first one, one glaring error by Mr Gaines:

"I then respectfully let him know that he really did not have authority to conduct ramp checks, as that is within the sole purview of the FAA (which I believe is correct - I do realize pilots must produce pilot certificates when requested by local law enforcement officers, but I do not believe we are required to produce any other documents.)"

Mr Gaines needs to read up on 14 CFR 61.3(l) again, as it relates to medical and such items as a photo ID also, not just the certificate itself, so in terms of a document check, any LEO agency can do a ramp check. All pilots need to be aware of this.

In terms of what Mr Gaines and Mr Phillips, going simply by what they've written, were stopped for, the only thing I can think of is that either their aircraft or something associated with it, may have been flagged for some reason by federal/state/local law enforcement; what that reason is, I would of course have no idea. From what they describe, nothing appears out of order, but I also don't know any backstory from the government side either. It'd be interesting to know what that might be.
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I read that as he was trying to explain the differences between what's required for a ramp check by the FAA and a documents check by other agencies, since he did use certificates in the plural. But if that part is "glaring" the part I quoted below should be too I'd think. Not only is the BP officer asking for a weight and balance as part of a "documents" check, he claims it must be there.

I know the actual procedures of the stops seems normal, it's the reasons for the contact I'm having a hard time with and the fact that Homeland Security isn't producing any reasons at all. If things were on the level you'd think Homeland Sec would love to talk about the good work they're doing. If a local LEO did this there would be no way he could hide behind his department and act like nothing happened. He'd have some explaining to do. I'm also not being hard on the guys doing the stops, it's the people that are ordering them. There's just no accountability. Even if its just four incidences, its four too many. People shouldn't need to fear being contacted by LE while going about their daily lives traveling within the boarders of the United States. Even if they aren't being searched, I think the PC for the contact is very thin. (Based on what I've read, since the gov isn't telling their side of the story)

I'm not sure why this issue is striking such a cord with me, but I appreciate your insight and thoughts. Thanks.

....."While he was away, the junior BP agent conducted another ramp check. I showed him my pilot and aircraft documentation, but he asked for a Weight & Balance calculation for that day's flight. [A calculation to ensure that a plane is not overloaded, and that its nose-to-tail weight balance is appropriate for safe flight.] I noted that I am responsible for assuring my airplane is loaded properly, but that I am not required to put it down on paper and carry it aboard the plane. He said I was wrong and that a W&B for each flight was required to be on board the aircraft. I asked if he was going to issue a citation and he said, no. He off-handedly noted that this requirement was little known by most pilots, and said, "We keep this in our back pocket for non-compliant suspects." That evening I looked it up and confirmed he was wrong. Part 91 flight operations rules do NOT require that a written W&B for each flight be carried on board."
 
gotWXdagain said:
I knew the guy that flew the Citation out of GFK, played hockey with him. They could put it into slow flight and keep pace with most of your garden variety bugsmashers as long as said bugsmashers were at cruise speeds. If they needed to talk to someone they'd fly alongside and put a big poster with "121.5" in the windshield.
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Thanks. I'd always heard of flying more of an "over watch" type mission.
 
Went flying today; the local FBO had printouts from AOPA detailing what to do and what not to do if detained by law enforcement for a ramp/security check. We are 200 miles from the border, so I guess I'm in drug trafficking country I was unaware of. :rolleyes:
 
PositionAndHold said:
I noted that I am responsible for assuring my airplane is loaded properly, but that I am not required to put it down on paper and carry it aboard the plane. He said I was wrong and that a W&B for each flight was required to be on board the aircraft. I asked if he was going to issue a citation and he said, no. He off-handedly noted that this requirement was little known by most pilots, and said, "We keep this in our back pocket for non-compliant suspects." That evening I looked it up and confirmed he was wrong. Part 91 flight operations rules do NOT require that a written W&B for each flight be carried on board."
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According to the AOPA PDF they recently released giving pilots guidelines about how to handle these interactions, the AOPA is trying to address this with Homeland Security (or whoever the hell it is that is obviously pushing the frequency of these contacts), because apparently LEO guidelines teach them incorrectly regarding the weight and balance requirements.
 
PositionAndHold said:
They can simply ask "mind if I search your plane". If you say yes, you are giving consent to a warrant less search and any thing found is usable in court. I you said no and they searched any way. This is what I am interested in, is this really happening?
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Well, if I ask you "Mind if I search your plane?" and you say "No", then you just gave me consent. ;>

~Fox
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
Went flying today; the local FBO had printouts from AOPA detailing what to do and what not to do if detained by law enforcement for a ramp/security check. We are 200 miles from the border, so I guess I'm in drug trafficking country I was unaware of. :rolleyes:
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You would be surprised how far inland drug trafficking goes actually, even by air.
 
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