Demand for pilots sky-high

LoadMasterC141 said:
Actually, being "Eligible" for pilot training is easier than ever. Just one eample: I was disqualified for my eyes. Now they let you have laser surgery.

The point is, if you were say, A C-17 Pilot in Charleston with 10 years in and close to Major, would you take the $120-some grand bonus(Think that is what it currently is) or go off to fly for a major that is bankrupt still?
Would you throw away complete stability, full medical and dental, and the opportunity to do fun flying all over the world, just to be an airline pilot? I mean, look at pay rates in the military. They are not bad anymore, especially considering most everything is paid for you (Housing, cheap food, entertainment, etc...).

Some do go, but most stay and get at least their twenty, and nice 50% retirement pay, full medical for life......See where I am going?

I think it was smart of the military to try and better retain their pilots. The amount of money they put into them to leave after 6 years for the airlines was ridiculous.
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The picture isn't really that rosy...it's more that guys on Active Duty see how crappy it is relative to the Majors right now!

A few rudder corrections to your post. First off, the first USAF pilot with a 10-year commitment hasn't even hit the end of his initial service commitment (that change from 8 years to 10 years occurred in late 1999 or early 2000). I was one of the last of the 8-year commitments and my hitch is up this summer...so the impact of raising the commitment length won't start to impact USAF pilot retention until FY09.

The "pilot bonus" has been a $25K per-year-for-5-years deal in recent years. That comes out to just under $90,000 after taxes, payable in about $18K per year payments. Not a single USAF pilot that I personally know has been swayed by that payment. Either they're going to stay in anyway and say, "hey, free money!", or they're going to get out anyway and don't care about the money (more on that later).

Recall that the "Force Shaping" initiatives over the last two years have also PAID some specific types of pilots to get out of the USAF. Specifically, some airlift types (C-130 guys and C-17 guys) were paid upwards of $140,000 to get out of their commitments early. There are a lot of questionmarks among rank-and-file pilots who don't understand why the USAF is doing that to the airlift community, which is busy as hell supporting the GWOT. Unfortunately the fighter community was not offered any of the voluntary separation pay -- I know several guys who would have taken the money and ran.

So, back to my initial point about military guys NOT currently flocking to the airlines in droves. When I initially got into the USAF, I heard guys who had been military pilots and gone to the airlines say, "Get out as soon as you can...every day you stay in is a seniority number lost!". Well, all that has completely changed. In my previous squadron I flew with a number of reservists who were furloughed Majors pilots -- to a T they all said "you're stupid if you don't stay in until 20." That is a HUGE change.

The primary reason is because of the relative instability of the industry over the last 5 years. As mentioned, military pilot pay is decent (I have been flying for 8 years and I make around $80K if you add in all the benefits), benefits are relatively good, and "stability" (as in, you're probably not going to get furloughed) is good for the first 10 years.

The factors driving guys to want to leave are primarily the operations tempo. Guys are spending more and more time away from home at deployed locations. This is NOT like spending time away from home as an airline pilot -- this is spending time away from home in gigantic blocks of time, from 4 months all the way up to a year at a time. It's interesting the first or second time you do it. The third or fourth it's not nearly as exciting and the "patriotism" has worn off a little bit.

As for me, I'm undecided what I'm going to do. I have several more months until I have to decide if I want to take the bonus or not. If I do, it means I'm going to tough it out all the way to 20 and get that pension-in-the-sky and the medical benefits (that keep eroding every year -- thanks, Congress). If not, I'll just be another ex-fighter punk trying to get an interview somewhere and support my family in the mean time.
 
Thanks for making it more clear Hack. I didn't know the bonus was that low now either.

If you are at Lakenheath, I take it your on 15's?
Lake/Moldy hole was my favorite base. Dad was stationed there as a kid. We lived in Thetford
 
My mistake, APC says that the junior captain hire is a 1987 hire on the EMB-190.

You'll never see street captains at the legacy's, not with lists that go 7,000 deep.
 
No street captains that I know of at unionized "legacy" carriers -- whatever the heck 'legacy' means because most airlines have been around longer than I've been alive.

There were several 15-month 737 captains down at Southernjets Express in MCO back in the day.

In fact, one of my pals went from being a Braslia captain in PSP at Skywest, went to Southernjets, did a year on the 727 flight engineer seat and right after probation was able to bid MCO 737 CA.
 
The last street captains at the legacies are on "bad boy" lists. Namely Continental in '83, United in '85 and Eastern in '87.

If that does not happen again, there will be no more street captains at the legacies.
 
OldTownPilot said:
The last street captains at the legacies are on "bad boy" lists. Namely Continental in '83, United in '85 and Eastern in '87.

If that does not happen again, there will be no more street captains at the legacies.
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I just wanna fly! :sarcasm:
 
Doug Taylor said:
There were several 15-month 737 captains down at Southernjets Express in MCO back in the day.

In fact, one of my pals went from being a Braslia captain in PSP at Skywest, went to Southernjets, did a year on the 727 flight engineer seat and right after probation was able to bid MCO 737 CA.
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That's hot.



What is he now? MD-88 CA in NYC?
 
Seggy said:
That's hot.



What is he now? MD-88 CA in NYC?
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I can't remember his last name off-hand else I'd check. Jeff....dangit, Jeff something dutch... Handel! BRB, I'll go see, but I know he wasn't able to maintain that through all the happy-happy-joy-joy that was the industry in the last years.
 
Doug Taylor said:
I'll go see, but I know he wasn't able to maintain that through all the happy-happy-joy-joy that was the industry in the last years.
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yeah thats what I figure, he probably is doing the NYC crashpad thing covering three airports as an FO...
 
There was one of the most senior guys in Bill's class was able to hold 737 CA in MCO. I don't know for how long he held it, but he obviously got bumped back to F/O post 9/11. The guys from Bill's class (Oct 1999) are just now getting into the 'possibility' realm of holding CA. Obviously very junior, NY based 88 CA!

Bill was 727 FE for about 3 months in NY, promptly got his transfer to CVG, then got his 88 bid in March of 2000.
 
MQAAord said:
There was one of the most senior guys in Bill's class was able to hold 737 CA in MCO. I don't know for how long he held it, but he obviously got bumped back to F/O post 9/11. The guys from Bill's class (Oct 1999) are just now getting into the 'possibility' realm of holding CA. Obviously very junior, NY based 88 CA!

Bill was 727 FE for about 3 months in NY, promptly got his transfer to CVG, then got his 88 bid in March of 2000.
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I LOVE how the NYC bases for pretty much EVERY airline are junior.

That is of course I LOVE it now. Who knows where I will end up, the more and more I think about it the more and more I am thinking about Dallas, Chicago, or SOCAL.
 
mattp1803 said:
20 years to make captain at US Airways yikes! :eek: I saw that on APC as well.
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Not all that unusual, and pretty much SOP back in the sixties and seventies. I knew a man, who was hired by UAL in 1962 who spent something like 18 years in the Flight Engineer and Co-Pilot's seats before he upgraded to 737 Captain. Then he spent another 10 years in that seat.
 
I disagree with the whole "first-year-is-dues-paying-year-so-the-pay-is-low" scenario, for a lot of reasons. A pilot fresh out of new hire school is doing the exact same job as a guy who has been in that seat for 5 or 10 years. Why should they be paid differently? Granted the 10 year guy's skills are likely to be more refined than the one year guy, but the airline doesn't charge a lower fare when the new guy is flying, so why should he be paid less? The airline derives value no matter who is in that seat. Also, a new guy is in no way insulated from the risks that go along with the job. He has just as much chance of getting injured or killed, or perhaps taking over for an incapacitated captain, as the 10 year guy. Nor is the FAA going to cut him any slack just because he is on first year probation. For these reasons, I think a day one pilot should be paid no less than a 30 year pilot, except for the obvious reasons of upgrade and/or airframe.
 
DE727UPS said:
First year at UPS, 33K. Second year F/O, 96K.
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Here is the major problem. A lot of pilots looking at going to another airline post 9-11 were coming from jobs where they made around $100K. It would be okay to go down to, say 75K for the first year, but to go all the way down to 33K is impossible for most people with families. That makes it very difficult for a professional pilot to start over again.

In just about every other industry you can take your experience with you to a new job and it will count for something. You will start near your old pay range.

This is not a dis on UPS, but just pointing out that it's not just people who are starting from the beginning of their career who have to look at first year major pay, it is older guys who are changing jobs as well.



TP
 
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