DeltaWest Flt 188
- Thread starter Malko
- Start date
Inverted25
Well-Known Member
Thats not the point though. If they can show that ATC did something wrong, whether or not it contributed to them missing the airport, they will have leverage against the FAA.
SeanD
Well-Known Member
Are their licenses gone for good or is this a temporary suspension until some sort of resolution is found? Im still unclear on it. I doubt these guys would have kept flying until a fuel warning came on. Ive read a little about this captain and he seems like a real professional who just got side tracked for a few moments. Nothing I have heard would lead me to believe they comprised the safety of everyone on board and are complete idiots who don't belong in the cockpit. Once again it appears the media has tarnished the pilot reputation. Its a shame guys like this quickly get dusted under the mat to appease the general public. That's how it looks to me.
I know at this point, it is best to try and spread some of the blame around. Like you said if they plant a seed, it may help. Just from what we see though contact was lost well before minny and wasn't established until after they missed minny.
At the surface though it is like me setting my alarm clock to get up for work and then blaming my wife be cause she did not wake me when the alarm did not go off. Damn AM/PM...
It's not the media that is tarnishing pilots' reputations; It's the pilots themselves. This wasn't a couple of missed calls, this was over an hour of not talking to anybody, not paying attention to the airplane, not watching/monitoring traffic, trusting that everyone else was going pick up the slack. A couple of missed radio calls is a distraction. An hour is criminal negligence.
If all that happens is that they lose their certificates, they should consider themselves lucky.
If all that happens is that they lose their certificates, they should consider themselves lucky.
granlistillo
Well-Known Member
I agree. Any other profession these two would be sent to the professional board and cashiered FOR LIFE. Disbarred, lose medical license whatever... The government wouldn't have time to act, the profession would slam them for disgracing the entire group. In our case ALPA will fight tooth and nail to save them That is one of the reasons why they are professionals and Airline Pilots are arguably not members of a true profession. It doesn't give me ANY pleasure to say that, but that is the cold hard fact.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
I've had an incident where I was out of radio contact in the flight levels for well over 20 minutes. I'm not going to go into it any further than that, but I'm 100% sure the controller(s) were at fault.
It DOES happen.
It DOES happen.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
It isn't always the pilots who are sleeping after all!
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
No sleeping involved. Just plain old human error.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
As of right now, their certificates have been revoked, not suspended. They will appeal their case to an administrative law judge (ALJ), who will decide whether the revocation was just. We only win about 5-10% of FAA cases in front of ALJs, so odds are not good, but the truth of the matter is that revocation in this case was absolutely excessive and far more than would have happened if the media attention wasn't on the case. Hopefully the ALJ will make the right decision.
But the thing that doesn't make sense is the pilots have already said the reason the were 'out of contact' was because of a heated discussion about whatever while on their pc's....No mention of 'controller error' until now. I was a tad surprised that they did not seize their laptops. It would have been pretty easy to see of they were on their pc's or not. There are two people who know exactly what happened on that flight and I doubt that the public will ever hear it all.
Slugger
Well-Known Member
There are 2 reasons why I think they should get their certs back:
1. the FAA only revoked them because of the media attention. period.
2. they'll NEVER do that again. If they are lucky enough to get their licenses back, they wouldn't risk going on their laptops again because they know if anything went wrong, they wouldn't be given another chance. Maybe I'm being too lenient, but I have a cert with 60.7 hours, and neither of them have certs at 20,000 and 11,000 hours.
1. the FAA only revoked them because of the media attention. period.
2. they'll NEVER do that again. If they are lucky enough to get their licenses back, they wouldn't risk going on their laptops again because they know if anything went wrong, they wouldn't be given another chance. Maybe I'm being too lenient, but I have a cert with 60.7 hours, and neither of them have certs at 20,000 and 11,000 hours.
Minuteman
Shipoaster
Hopefully independently and with more information than only that which has been released inappropriately.
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
Can you imagine the uproar in the press if they were given their privileges back? It would be the end of days...
Fox news would lead with
"The socialist FAA wants you DEAD! because of liberal politics, and oh yeah, blame Obama"
Fox news would lead with
"The socialist FAA wants you DEAD! because of liberal politics, and oh yeah, blame Obama"
B767
Well-Known Member
Read o another site that on handoff from one DEN sector to another, the FO put in the wrong freq. It was a freq for Winnipeg center. They heard radio chatter on said wrong freq and figured they were with the correct DEN sector. Possibly why they're blaming ATC.
Now, how they flew of he midwest and hearing "air canada 123, winnipeg center, maintain FL330" or whatever, and figured they were with DEN is beyond me.
And the pilots also reported that they missed numerous ACARS messages from NWA because the A320 doesn't have a "ding" to signify a message, but rather a light that illuminates for 30 seconds.
Now, how they flew of he midwest and hearing "air canada 123, winnipeg center, maintain FL330" or whatever, and figured they were with DEN is beyond me.
And the pilots also reported that they missed numerous ACARS messages from NWA because the A320 doesn't have a "ding" to signify a message, but rather a light that illuminates for 30 seconds.
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Twice in the flight levels on the way to Vegas I was forgotton about and not handed off to the next controller. Then I went out of radio reception for that freq. It is hard to find the right freq to get on to over extreme sparse terrain but the deltawest situation is much different. Sure there may be some blame to spread but its not ATC's job to spoon feed the pilots, if the pilots were doing their jobs they would have noticed lack of radio calls and made something happen. I'm sorry, NORDO for 77 min, blasting pass destination wthout descending. That is flat out pilot error.
I wish the feds had respect for their own process.
With the way the feds handled this case, they've done a lot to damage flight safety, especially when it comes to the ASAP program.
Their decisions are reactive and not preventative whatsoever.
Somehow I think if I write up a situation pertaining to flight safety in the ASAP program and to present suggestions to increase safety, I now have to worry about it getting forwarded to CNN's Campbell Brown and Chopperazzi hovering above my home for a live feed.
With the way the feds handled this case, they've done a lot to damage flight safety, especially when it comes to the ASAP program.
Their decisions are reactive and not preventative whatsoever.
Somehow I think if I write up a situation pertaining to flight safety in the ASAP program and to present suggestions to increase safety, I now have to worry about it getting forwarded to CNN's Campbell Brown and Chopperazzi hovering above my home for a live feed.
ljg
Well-Known Member
That is certainly something that the FAA should be taken to task with. Do you guys think they'd actually get farther if their attorneys were to address the FAA process and the leak of information, rather than placing some of the blame on Denver Center? I personally believe these guys are stuck in a small room with four cement walls, and nowhere to run.