Delta TA

Trip7 said:
To follow up with you on the new language as I posted before it's after 14 days of sick in a rolling 365 period you require a doctor's note with explaining the reason you are sick and when you can come back to work.

Also on a rolling 365 period if you are sick 24 or more days the Director of Health Services will ask for the pilot to submit additional verification which is acceptable to DHS. If not then they will will require a medical release from the pilot which is a written authorization for the release of medical information to the DHS for which the pilot claimed sick, and days the pilot used sick leave and the consecutive days off immediately preceding and succeeding the days on which sick leave was claimed. If the release of info is still not acceptable it is expanded to include Company Doctor and VP or Ops.

If you are sick 53 days or more in a rolling 3 year period then the Medical Release clause also triggers.

There also are now restrictions in picking up trips after sick calls on your days off. Any part of a trip attempted to be picked up on your day off will be tested against FAR limits. If you weren't legal to pick up the trip if you had flown the trip you called in sick for then the pick up request will be denied. For example it's legal to call in sick for a 4 day trip then call in well on your day off and pick up a 5 day Greenslip and end up with 70+ hours of pay for only working 5 days. TA2015 restricts that.
Click to expand...

Okay, so this is about the same as what was added for us, minus ours triggers an "evaluation" from the CP's office rather than a doctor's note. We also don't have all that language about DHS, written authorization and other things. A nasty cold can take someone down for a 4 day trip easily. Do that 4 times in a rolling 365 days, and you're over the 14 day limit. Notice it's DAYS not OCCURRENCES. So, this kinda hurts guys that normally bid longer trips for commutability compared to guys that fly day trips.

I'd expect all the people that slammed jetBlue's new sick policy (ie the fact that one exists now) to be all over this one as well. Also, the note explaining "why you were sick" technically may be a violation of the law. That's doctor-patient confidentiality. All the company needs to know is I was sick and the doctor treated me and thinks I'm ready to return now. The "how" and "why" is between the person, their doctor and POSSIBLY their FAA medical examiner.
 
Seggy said:
Pilots aren't children. We are adults entrusted with a billion dollars + worth of liabilities. 99% know it is not right to call in sick just because you don't feel like showing up to work or flying a certain trip to watch your favorite football team or watch The Masters on Sunday.
Click to expand...
While I agree that we're not children and SHOULD be responsible, I think we all know that every airline out there has those guys that aren't responsible and game the system for their own good. We've debated the percentages ad naseum in the past. I am highly skeptical that only 1% of the pilots at your place think it's okay to bang out sick when they need the day off. I can personally name enough guys at mine to make it to 5%. When I was at Pinnacle, I could name enough guys to make it to double digit percentages. That just guys I KNOW, and I don't know the whole pilot group. It's gotten to the point that I can tell if I'm gonna get called on reserve sometimes based on if a guy wound up getting scheduled on a weekend and couldn't swap out of it. Sure, maybe the guy only gets sick on weekends, and that's a possibility.

I'm with @PhilosopherPilot on the fact that I think there needs to be SOME kind of policy in place. If you stick to the "Well, they can request a fitness exam at their discretion" what that winds up doing is instilling so much fear in the pilot group that guys start flying sick because they're afraid of losing their medical because they got sent for a fitness exam and their blood pressure spiked over the limits. The flip side of the coin is what we had a LOT hear during the last PEA cycle and that was guys calling in sick "just 'cus I can." We didn't do a very good job of self policing those guys, and this is where we wound up. After being under the policy for a while, I don't really have too many issues with it. I've called in sick when I was sick, and I went to work when I was scheduled. I don't even know what my CP looks like to tell you the truth. Honestly, I'm okay with that. Looking back on the past 365 days with Delta's policy? I'd be getting a "sick verification" note for sick calls for the next couple of months. And since it's a rolling 365 and days instead of occurrences, once you're under that umbrella, it's tough to get out from underneath it.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Agreed. We have so much ground to gain that I think most of their TA would be a win for us. Of course, I haven't seen the scheduling and other sections, but I'm assuming they are FAR better than our current book.
Click to expand...

Some stuff, I totally agree. Just HAVING a contract in and of itself would be a gain. Then again, I still think comparing us to Delta is apples to oranges. For example, we'd be out with pitchforks if the words "regional partner" had anything to do with something larger than a 402 flown by Cape Air. We have a hard enough time accepting that as a "code share agreement." Toss in some JV language, and you could say goodbye to us even thinking about flying to Brazil or Hawaii. Granted with our deal with Hawaiian, I don't see us every flying to Hawaii even though I think we'd clean house with a couple of Mint configured 321s out of LGB. Might even limit growth in Mexico if they paired up with one of the Mexican airlines depending on language. I personally like our current sick policy a LOT better than what's in the TA for Delta. Basically, if this passes, look for us to get a shade or more on the SOUTH side of what they get. No way is our management going to give us something not even Delta has. Either that or we're gonna be negotiating for a long time. Virgin America might have a deal before us.....
 
Cptnchia said:
That ASAP report was from C2012 time. It was used in a memo about, "See what happened last time? Don't repeat the mistake."
Click to expand...
I have decided that I will no longer engage in pay/compensation related conversations up front.

"So...do you like...stuff?"
 
MikeD said:
Curious, with no policy or nothing defined on a particular subject, how can there be any kind of accountability? I'm not just talking sick day stuff, I'm talking anything. How is anything else that anyone is held accountable for in the company, what is that based on? Got to be based on something solid.
Click to expand...
PhilosopherPilot said:
He's missing the underlying corporate reason for a sick policy. He cannot step out of his pilot role, and step into the role of management to understand why they need to define the limits of abuse.

Again, I'm not for occurrences and doctors notes or the Delta policy being discussed. But a policy of some type is necessary.
Click to expand...

As stated, you can get fired for lying to the company as it is usually in the employee handbook. That coupled with proper interaction from the CPO ahead of time can curb rampant abuse instead of having a one and done policy. You know how difficult it is to write a good policy, we shouldn't be trying to figure out how to write a good policy for potential sick leave abuse. Just deal with the individual.

MikeD said:
Curious, with no policy or nothing defined on a particular subject, how can there be any kind of accountability? I'm not just talking sick day stuff, I'm talking anything. How is anything else that anyone is held accountable for in the company, what is that based on? Got to be based on something solid.
Click to expand...

Our profession is the most regulated in the world @MikeD, I can't use the bathroom without permission. We are heavily regulated on how we can't fly sick. How can you have a policy that may contradict to your obligation under the law to not fly sick? I have seen sick policies that do that however!

The bottom line is the company has, at it's disposal, plenty of tools to deal with individuals who abuse sick leave. You don't need a policy to regulate it.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm not sure why this is mind boggling. Policies can be modified by management on a whim. Contract language has to be negotiated if they want to change it. I would imagine that the NC wanted to lock this in so as to prohibit management from changing the rules to make them worse down the road.
Click to expand...

We had a discussion with the Colgan MEC on whether to try to negotiate contractual language concerning a sick leave policy as the company was hell bent on having one. The consensus from the lawyers and a large mainline MEC was to not acknowledge it in contractual language as it gives the stance the company wants to take legitimacy. Let the company make a bad policy as it is easier to fight with an arbitrator if they went after a pilot for sick leave abuse.
 
Seggy said:
We had a discussion with the Colgan MEC on whether to try to negotiate contractual language concerning a sick leave policy as the company was hell bent on having one. The consensus from the lawyers and a large mainline MEC was to not acknowledge it in contractual language as it gives the stance the company wants to take legitimacy. Let the company make a bad policy as it is easier to fight with an arbitrator if they went after a pilot for sick leave abuse.
Click to expand...

Yes, that used to be the consensus. It changed after several arbitrations were lost on this issue.
 
Seggy said:
What properties were they lost at? AirTran?
Click to expand...

No, we never lost one, because we bargained it into the contract after other carriers lost their arbitrations. You'd have to ask Yoda where the lost arbitrations were. This is going back to 2010 when we were bargaining this, so I can't remember.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
No, we never lost one, because we bargained it into the contract after other carriers lost their arbitrations. You'd have to ask Yoda where the lost arbitrations were. This is going back to 2010 when we were bargaining this, so I can't remember.
Click to expand...

Should have posted this on Friday and I'd have asked him. We lost an arbitration at PSA about the company sick policy (the one they'd had for years) based on past practice. Only time I've ever seen that argument used successfully by either party. The win we got out of it was that any changes to the policy would have to be negotiated with us.
 
Dear Fellow Pilot,


It’s a curious thing that the truth is narrowly defined, because it’s the truth. Falsehoods can take any shape . . . and often do. This is one of the reasons that good governance is primarily the result of rational, centered judgment.


We just signed a tentative agreement with Delta Air Lines that is the richest in pilot history, unmatched anywhere in the country or the world, and which gives the Delta pilots substantial raises in pay over the next three years. This is a fact.


Since that signing there has been a leveling of emotional statements propagated by some who seek to blur the facts that ought to guide us. Our own social media is proof. The first vitriolic comment leads to the next falsehood, which leads to the next vitriol.


So here is what is occurring. There is a small, but vocal, group among us who have been lying in wait for anything to occur. They already made their claims before we started negotiating . . . claims that were in no way connected to reason or the result of what is Contract 2015. Additionally, there are pilots on social media who have decided they are against the TA, even before all the facts are known--and these pilots are often choosing to use a social sledgehammer against anyone daring to ask an honest question, or voice any support for the TA whatsoever. Please understand that I'm not discussing honest debate, pro or con, but those who would stifle professional discussion. That does the Delta pilots a disservice, and we must all be alert for "information" that is not fact-based.


The truth needs definition, consideration and time. And the Delta pilots need the opportunity to consider this agreement without being inundated with simple, yet continuous falsehoods or attack.


Here is what I ask of you: I ask that you attend a road show (current roadshow schedule). We will be hosting them all over the system. At the road shows you will have a chance to address every one of your concerns and have them answered, unemotionally, rationally, truthfully--sort of the way we do our jobs.


Here is what I pledge: No sell job. We will print the facts. If we have an opinion, we will say as much. It will be as much a distinction astechnique is from procedure.


Here is another fact: I’ve seen good agreements go down due to bad lies on social media. I won’t let our social media be a conduit for those lies. Our outlet exists to do the same as a roadshow or talking with one of our P2P volunteers. To get your questions answered…plain and simple. Additionally, we've started a question bank; send yours toAskDALMEC@alpa.org and we will post the answer on the MEC Communications FaceBook page as soon as possible. Many answers are already posted.


In less than thirty days you will render your judgment. Make it an informed judgment…based on fact and weighing all aspects of the agreement. Then cast your vote. To learn more about our current opportunity, click here to view my latest video presentation anddal.alpa.org.


I hope to see you, in person, soon.


Fraternally,


mail


Captain Mike Donatelli
Click to expand...

I agree with MD 1000%
 
BobDDuck said:
Should have posted this on Friday and I'd have asked him. We lost an arbitration at PSA about the company sick policy (the one they'd had for years) based on past practice. Only time I've ever seen that argument used successfully by either party. The win we got out of it was that any changes to the policy would have to be negotiated with us.
Click to expand...
Sometimes, the way it's always been is perfectly alright.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I'm really not sure where you get this idea. I've never met an arbitrator who wouldn't consider blatant unethical behavior to be "just cause" for termination. But even if they didn't, every employee handbook in existence permits discipline for lying to the company, so it's already covered.



I'm not sure why this is mind boggling. Policies can be modified by management on a whim. Contract language has to be negotiated if they want to change it. I would imagine that the NC wanted to lock this in so as to prohibit management from changing the rules to make them worse down the road.



Well, there's a quick way to get fired!



His argument isn't BS, but if what you say is true, JetBlue's management abilities definitely are. Anyone with that attitude should have been dealt with individually. No policy necessary. What you describe would constitute just cause for discipline, with or without a "policy."

That said, after looking further into what's in the TA on this subject, it isn't as bad as I had thought. The medical records that the company can request at a certain threshold of sick days are limited to the records specific to that sick call, not your medical records generally. Apparently only 15% of the pilot group would ever even meet the threshold for providing those records, and only about 30% would ever need to even provide a note. Hardly the apocalypse being presented by the Carl Spacklers on APC. Is it ideal? No. But negotiations never tend to produce anything "ideal." That's why they're called negotiations instead of demands.
Click to expand...

Thank you! Very well said.
 
Puppy has a point in general, however with certain salient issues like sick leave, it's hard to say "Congrats! You're getting cornholed by Sasquatch!" then plead for patience and to wait for intimate details.
 
Last edited:
Derg said:
Puppy has a point in general, however with certain salient issues like sick leave, it's hard to say "Congrats! You're getting cornholed by Sasquatch!" then plead for patience and to wait for intimate details.
Click to expand...
Best. Use. Of. Cornholed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top