Delta TA

PhilosopherPilot said:
You said you didn't want to define the limit. And you said the company can refer someone to an AME at any time. That is exactly what you said.

So if chief pilot A thinks you're a jerk, he can say, "You've called out sick so many times I think we need a fitness exam." And off you go after 5 sick calls. It's at his discretion because you won't let him create a policy. Chief pilot B likes Jimbo, and never sends him for an exam because "Jimbo's a good ole boy" even though he has called out sick 50 times this year.

Policies define limits and protect everyone.
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The problem in your example above isn't the lack of policy, it is the Chief Pilot.
 
Seggy said:
Pilots aren't children. We are adults entrusted with a billion dollars + worth of liabilities. 99% know it is not right to call in sick just because you don't feel like showing up to work or flying a certain trip to watch your favorite football team or watch The Masters on Sunday.
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Wrong. We are human. And without clear limits, humans drift. This is psychology and management 101 man. Good grief.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
I didn't say anything derogatory. I said you're a union banger, which is true, and union bangers typically wouldn't want someone referred to an AME.
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Where did I say I wanted to refer someone to an AME? I just said the company has that option at any time. Hence, the ultimate trump card they have concerning your precious need for a policy.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
Wrong. We are human. And without clear limits, humans drift. This is psychology and management 101 man. Good grief.
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Some drift is acceptable such as if you say 'the landing checklist is complete' instead of if you are supposed to say 'landing checklist complete'.

So don't be so dramatic.
 
Seggy said:
Some drift is acceptable such as if you say 'the landing checklist is complete' instead of if you are supposed to say 'landing checklist complete'.

So don't be so dramatic.
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You've never worked at JetBlue. We didn't have a sick policy for 13 years. This place drifted to the point that it was normal to just call in sick when you didn't like a pairing and couldn't drop it. It was common for people to call out whenever they felt like it. I've SEEN it firsthand. It was FAR more than 1%. The captains said, "There's no policy, so you can do whatever you like and they can't say anything. So you're theoretical "ethical" argument is BS.
 
Snuggle said:
I actually thought Seggy was doing a good job discussing this. I'm not sure if you are having a bad day or what, but maybe have a adult beverage or 2 and come back to this.
Theres some good points made by @Seggy and @Derg with reference to this sick policy in this TA.
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He's missing the underlying corporate reason for a sick policy. He cannot step out of his pilot role, and step into the role of management to understand why they need to define the limits of abuse.

Again, I'm not for occurrences and doctors notes or the Delta policy being discussed. But a policy of some type is necessary.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You've never worked at JetBlue. We didn't have a sick policy for 13 years. This place drifted to the point that it was normal to just call in sick when you didn't like a pairing and couldn't drop it. It was common for people to call out whenever they felt like it. I've SEEN it firsthand. It was FAR more than 1%. The captains said, "There's no policy, so you can do whatever you like and they can't say anything. So you're theoretical "ethical" argument is BS.
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Curious, with no policy or nothing defined on a particular subject, how can there be any kind of accountability? I'm not just talking sick day stuff, I'm talking anything. How is anything else that anyone is held accountable for in the company, what is that based on? Got to be based on something solid.
 
MikeD said:
Curious, with no policy or nothing defined on a particular subject, how can there be any kind of accountability? I'm not just talking sick day stuff, I'm talking anything. How is anything else that anyone is held accountable for in the company, what is that based on? Got to be based on something solid.
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Well that's my entire point. There must be SOME kind of policy. These aren't small companies with fewer than 20 employees where you can get by with no policy. We have thousands of employees company-wide. Policies are a necessary evil. Otherwise you're left to the individual whims of individual managers. At a very large company you can't expect all the bad managers to be culled out.
 
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As a non DL pilot looking in, this TA is very interesting. Especially as our company is currently in Negotiations. All these details are a big deal and i'll be waiting to see how the vote goes.
 
Snuggle said:
As a non DL pilot looking in, this TA is very interesting. Especially as our company is currently in Negotiations. All these details are a big deal and i'll be waiting to see how the vote goes.
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Agreed. We have so much ground to gain that I think most of their TA would be a win for us. Of course, I haven't seen the scheduling and other sections, but I'm assuming they are FAR better than our current book.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You've never worked at JetBlue. We didn't have a sick policy for 13 years. This place drifted to the point that it was normal to just call in sick when you didn't like a pairing and couldn't drop it. It was common for people to call out whenever they felt like it. I've SEEN it firsthand. It was FAR more than 1%. The captains said, "There's no policy, so you can do whatever you like and they can't say anything. So you're theoretical "ethical" argument is BS.
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Wait, that sounds like where I work.
 
Also. Derg beat me to it, but I'm just now seeing it.

Except as approved by the Delta MEC Chairman...a carrier engaged in international partner flying will maintain a separate operating and corporate identity from the Company including, but not limited to, name, trade name, logo, livery, trademarks or service marks. The Delta MEC Chairman may, at his option, approve the use by a carrier engaged in international partner flying of a trade name, brand, logo, trademarks, service marks, aircraft livery or aircraft paint scheme currently or in the future utilized by the Company or any Company affiliate.
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:eek:

That's...interesting.
 
Trip7 said:
One ASAP stated, and I kid you not, "my disappointment with the TA" as a contributing factor
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(1) Outside looking in, the brand protection or lack thereof is rather disappointing (CA Dad is voting NO).

(2) Your coworkers tend to be...exceedingly honest in their ASAPs if the excerpts I've seen are to be believed.

"If our on-time machine had been 5 minutes more on time tonight, I would be watching Judge Judy and not filling out an ASAP..."

OR

"No, I wasn't distracted. I wasn't thinking about what to have for dinner or the laundry list of tasks my wife had waiting for me when I got home."
 
Trip7 said:
One ASAP stated, and I kid you not, "my disappointment with the TA" as a contributing factor
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Wait... I'm calling BS on this.

1) The TA was released just a few days ago.
2) ERCs don't meet that often
3) Even if the ERC happened to meet between the TA being released and now, the ASAP Review (or whatever it is called there) wouldn't already be out.
4) No ERC is going to release specific wording from a filled ASAP.

So... you want to try again?

PhilosopherPilot said:
You've never worked at JetBlue. We didn't have a sick policy for 13 years. This place drifted to the point that it was normal to just call in sick when you didn't like a pairing and couldn't drop it. It was common for people to call out whenever they felt like it. I've SEEN it firsthand. It was FAR more than 1%. The captains said, "There's no policy, so you can do whatever you like and they can't say anything. So you're theoretical "ethical" argument is BS.
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At most unionized properties the issue is self correcting. If a percentage of the pilot group (1% or more) starts doing stupid stuff like that, the rest of the group will handle the problem BEFORE it becomes a problem for everybody. Or at least they should. I'm actually seeing the side effects of a problem being ignored here. Sometimes you've got to step on some toes (as a pilot group) to protect your own interests.
 
BobDDuck said:
Wait... I'm calling BS on this.

1) The TA was released just a few days ago.
2) ERCs don't meet that often
3) Even if the ERC happened to meet between the TA being released and now, the ASAP Review (or whatever it is called there) wouldn't already be out.
4) No ERC is going to release specific wording from a filled ASAP.

So... you want to try again?
.
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That ASAP report is three years old.
 
PhilosopherPilot said:
You can't fire someone for being unethical. You need them to break a policy and document it. Good luck winning the "but it was unethical" argument in court.

"What policy did they break that caused their termination."

"Well, they didn't outright break a policy, but can't you see how wrong it was?"

"...crickets..."
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I'm really not sure where you get this idea. I've never met an arbitrator who wouldn't consider blatant unethical behavior to be "just cause" for termination. But even if they didn't, every employee handbook in existence permits discipline for lying to the company, so it's already covered.

Seggy said:
It is mind boggling that the Delta MEC Negotiating Committee agreed to put a 'sick verification' in the contract instead of having it a policy. Mind boggling.
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I'm not sure why this is mind boggling. Policies can be modified by management on a whim. Contract language has to be negotiated if they want to change it. I would imagine that the NC wanted to lock this in so as to prohibit management from changing the rules to make them worse down the road.

PhilosopherPilot said:
"Hey Bob, go eff yourself. There's no sick policy. Tell the Chief he can pound sand."
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Well, there's a quick way to get fired!

PhilosopherPilot said:
You've never worked at JetBlue. We didn't have a sick policy for 13 years. This place drifted to the point that it was normal to just call in sick when you didn't like a pairing and couldn't drop it. It was common for people to call out whenever they felt like it. I've SEEN it firsthand. It was FAR more than 1%. The captains said, "There's no policy, so you can do whatever you like and they can't say anything. So you're theoretical "ethical" argument is BS.
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His argument isn't BS, but if what you say is true, JetBlue's management abilities definitely are. Anyone with that attitude should have been dealt with individually. No policy necessary. What you describe would constitute just cause for discipline, with or without a "policy."

That said, after looking further into what's in the TA on this subject, it isn't as bad as I had thought. The medical records that the company can request at a certain threshold of sick days are limited to the records specific to that sick call, not your medical records generally. Apparently only 15% of the pilot group would ever even meet the threshold for providing those records, and only about 30% would ever need to even provide a note. Hardly the apocalypse being presented by the Carl Spacklers on APC. Is it ideal? No. But negotiations never tend to produce anything "ideal." That's why they're called negotiations instead of demands.
 
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