Delta TA

ian said:
are they supposed to just give you the facts? or try to persuade you to vote their way? cuz that video seems like a please vote yes instead of what the facts are
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That's what I hated about our last vote. They pushed hard instead of simply giving the facts. I get that certain things are certain peoples baby and they worked hard on the language, but that doesn't mean it isn't crap.

60 days might be excessive, but I'd think with the fact that it was a borderline vote and that it JUST happened, I think it's a little too early to say "hey, let's speed this up."
 
ian said:
are they supposed to just give you the facts? or try to persuade you to vote their way? cuz that video seems like a please vote yes instead of what the facts are
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It is a fine line. Yes, the volunteers who are trying to get a contract have to be careful to not sell it hard and let the agreement stand on merit but can get caught up being a little to enthusiastic. You do have a very real and serious responsibility of getting a contract in place.

On the other hand, the no voters get wrong information out there easily and it can take off. Nothing pisses me off more than to here, 'I just voted no as you NEVER take the first offer' and 'I just vote NO as it is not good enough for me'.

Get your facts people!

I listened to the video and it wasn't a sales job.
 
ian said:
are they supposed to just give you the facts? or try to persuade you to vote their way? cuz that video seems like a please vote yes instead of what the facts are
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It seemed pretty restrained to me. I pushed a lot harder than he did when we had a TA.

The job of leaders to is to lead.

Screaming_Emu said:
60 days might be excessive, but I'd think with the fact that it was a borderline vote and that it JUST happened, I think it's a little too early to say "hey, let's speed this up."
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In this day and age with instant access to information, it's insane for any vote to drag on longer than 30 days. If someone can't collect the information and make a decision in a couple of weeks, he probably shouldn't be voting anyway. Or flying airliners for that matter.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
From the MEC Chairman:

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One thing I saw about this video, was that he states that this is a dollar amount never seen before, the $330/hr vs the $320 with C2K. On a dollar amount, that is true, but when you factor in inflation, that $320 in 2004, is equal to $400/hr in 2015 dollars, and who knows what in 2017/2018.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
In this day and age with instant access to information, it's insane for any vote to drag on longer than 30 days. If someone can't collect the information and make a decision in a couple of weeks, he probably shouldn't be voting anyway. Or flying airliners for that matter.
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Is that why you left? :D

I agree that 60 days is excessive, but I'd rather err on the side of time. Hurrying is a stupid idea. It's not like this is the regional world where "ermahgerd, we need to get this contract done so that we can win this RFP and get more planes!"

There is no damn hurry. Contracts are complicated documents and people should take time to figure it out what exactly they're voting for. And yes, if you need that long to figure it out, you shouldn't be flying airplanes...but we all know that they still are.
 
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ATN_Pilot said:
From the MEC Chairman:

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Having read the TA entirely I agree with MD's facts. The only section I need clarification on is the JV which was labeled by the union as a gain, not concession. The Internet has decided it's a concession. Reading the TA the language on the JV is very complex and I couldn't come to a conclusion. I have no clue how the Virgin Carve out and Alitalia leaving the JV affects current language vs TA2015. Then you have A330s replacing 767s across the Atlantic. How does that affect EASKs vs Block hours. Lots of questions. Looking forward to Wed.
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
What us with the sick leave? Doc slip for all? Does it have to say issue or just that doc says you came in? HIPAA on the issue side.
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To follow up with you on the new language as I posted before it's after 14 days of sick in a rolling 365 period you require a doctor's note with explaining the reason you are sick and when you can come back to work.

Also on a rolling 365 period if you are sick 24 or more days the Director of Health Services will ask for the pilot to submit additional verification which is acceptable to DHS. If not then they will will require a medical release from the pilot which is a written authorization for the release of medical information to the DHS for which the pilot claimed sick, and days the pilot used sick leave and the consecutive days off immediately preceding and succeeding the days on which sick leave was claimed. If the release of info is still not acceptable it is expanded to include Company Doctor and VP or Ops.

If you are sick 53 days or more in a rolling 3 year period then the Medical Release clause also triggers.

There also are now restrictions in picking up trips after sick calls on your days off. Any part of a trip attempted to be picked up on your day off will be tested against FAR limits. If you weren't legal to pick up the trip if you had flown the trip you called in sick for then the pick up request will be denied. For example it's legal to call in sick for a 4 day trip then call in well on your day off and pick up a 5 day Greenslip and end up with 70+ hours of pay for only working 5 days. TA2015 restricts that.
 
Trip7 said:
To follow up with you on the new language as I posted before it's after 14 days of sick in a rolling 365 period you require a doctor's note with explaining the reason you are sick and when you can come back to work.

Also on a rolling 365 period if you are sick 24 or more days the Director of Health Services will ask for the pilot to submit additional verification which is acceptable to DHS. If not then they will will require a medical release from the pilot which is a written authorization for the release of medical information to the DHS for which the pilot claimed sick, and days the pilot used sick leave and the consecutive days off immediately preceding and succeeding the days on which sick leave was claimed. If the release of info is still not acceptable it is expanded to include Company Doctor and VP or Ops.

If you are sick 53 days or more in a rolling 3 year period then the Medical Release clause also triggers.

There also are now restrictions in picking up trips after sick calls on your days off. Any part of a trip attempted to be picked up on your day off will be tested against FAR limits. If you weren't legal to pick up the trip if you had flown the trip you called in sick for then the pick up request will be denied. For example it's legal to call in sick for a 4 day trip then call in well on your day off and pick up a 5 day Greenslip and end up with 70+ hours of pay for only working 5 days. TA2015 restricts that.
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Definitely do not forget to tell him about how you would not be able to voluntarily verify your sick leave any more.
 
Trip7 said:
To follow up with you on the new language as I posted before .....
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Thanks. I was wondering with what info asked for while I can release my doc for the info, do I really want this info out. And if mandatory would it fall under HIPAA.

Once again thanks.
 
It's the "camels nose under the tent" concept.

HIstorically, you get sick, you call in sick and call in well. No problem. We're professionals.

(in a very very simplified and general sense)

Apparently, there are a handful of people abusing sick leave. So we enabled the company to create a "honeypot" of sorts because at some point, you would run out of "unverified sick leave" and run into "verified" sick leave where in order to get full pay, you have to have a note from your doctor.

Some stories were exchanged about how extreme the abusers were and well, no need to worry about it because well did you know that there are people that call in sick monthly?

Now with the expanded net, "don't worry" 3/4's of the pilots aren't even close to qualifying for expanded scrutiny about sick leave.

If there is evidence of people abusing sick leave, handle it. But to create a draconian environment where people that don't need to medically be at work are pressured to come in, plus the ridiculousness of our FAR 117 interpretations (you sign a release, you've automatically agreed to the extension and if you don't extend, be ready to spend loads of time on paperwork), it's a classic overreach.

But look at the uhh… pay rates.

This might not look back coming from a regional, but when you've been working under a good contract for decades… welll…


Nope.
 
Nick said:
Definitely do not forget to tell him about how you would not be able to voluntarily verify your sick leave any more.
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What @Nick means is the first 14 days of sick calls still count towards the threshold regardless of whether you have a note or not. ALPA states 2/3s or 67% of pilot group will not be affected by the change.

On a personal note, I have no problem with the change. If I'm sick that many days in 365 or 3 year period I'm fine with getting a note or medical release.
 
Trip7 said:
On a personal note, I have no problem with the change. If I'm sick that many days in 365 or 3 year period I'm fine with getting a note or medical release.
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I actually see it as a safety issue when you put in barriers or obstacles for calling in sick. I think the amount of people who abuse the system is negligible compared to the amount of pilots who will potentially fly sick because calling out is complicated.
 
One perspective to think about is days versus occurences.

In your 20's, 30's, you're not sick that often and chances are you're primarily domestic.

Get up in your 40's or 50's and especially 60's, things break more often and that 5 day trip you were able to knock out suddenly beats the living death out of you from arriving in ATL at 0545 and flying west at 1700 to fly to LAX. Plus, one sick call on an average 330 trip, there goes 11 or 12 days right there in one fail swoop. Been there, done that.

I'm not telling you how to vote, however being mid-seniority (and middle aged now), I have a foot in the world I saw when I was much younger and a a clearer picture of the realities of aging as I watch my mentors medical out from things I simply didn't have to think about in my 20's and 30's.

I want my first officers home if they're sick, and at work when they're well. I've had too many people come to work ill with "allergies" because they're out of unverified sick time. I've already got enough crap to worry about than ascertaining if I have to send someone home because they're trying to fly with the bubonic plague and they feel "pushed".


I used to not give much of a poop about the reserve system. Oh hell, some months I have reserve and I have all kinds of beefs and I REALLY GET IT NOW when guys bitch about it.

I'm not so much worried about today, I'm worried about tomorrow and the precedent it sets for our future and other airlines.
 
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Honestly, if I was there, I'd probably be a "no" vote because of the sick policy. I don't have a problem with a system of verifying sickness at a certain threshold, but this seems to go way beyond that, and your point about days instead of occurrences is also relevant. We negotiated a sick system into our last contract that reduced paid sick accrual if you had more than five occurrences in a rolling twelve months. But 15 days in a row was a single occurrence. We also didn't allow them to require documentation. They could only send you to a doctor at their expense, so they never did that. And if they did, the only thing he could tell them was "fit for duty" or "not fit for duty."

I think the overall contract looks great, but it does need some tweaks. Hopefully if it gets voted down, the MEC is smart enough to go back and tweak rather than starting from scratch like so many inexperienced status reps usually do after a failed TA.
 
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