Delta TA

learhawkerbe400 said:
If you don't like them then don't bid them. It's that simple.
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Unfortunately it is not that simple.

There are often months in my base where 50% of the pairings in open time are CDOs.

They end up going to reserves that are on a 'day schedule', that is to say they've been doing daytime airport ready reserve or daytime flying and then all of a suddenly on their second to last reserve day, they are assigned a flight to somewhere at 9PM, and they get to the hotel at midnight and they are back on the hotel van at 4AM.

That is an example of a complete lack of CDO rules.

The reserves that cover CDOs, in the off chance there actually is a reserve to cover one, which is rare, are assigned that reserve period the day before.
 
Seggy said:
It is in the Delta TA for CDOs?
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Yeah, that was one of the bullet points of the whole thing.

Maybe today or tomorrow the actual proposed rules surrounding them will become known, and if they're really great, then this discussion could be a moot point.

I still don't think introducing them is a wise choice though. Things change and if CDO rules were to change for the worse it's an uphill battle and wasted negotiating energy just to keep things safe.

It'd be like the e-mail tax that was being discussed a few years ago.

Sure, it might be only $0.05 to send an e-mail.

But will it stay that way forever?

Good thing the cost of postage stamps never goes up. o_O
 
The other concern is relaxing the rules to the new FAA FDP limits.

Aren't majors supposed to easily have work rules that exceed the government regs?
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
If you don't like them then don't bid them. It's that simple.
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Here's my opinion on the 'if you don't like them, don't bid them' angle.

Of course, if I may profess an opinion.

We had an issue with international flights heading into MED/"Malaria Endemic Destinations".

The CDC guidance that if you have a certain amount of exposure in the area, they heavily suggest Malarone before the exposure, during the time in the MED and for a period of time after leaving the MED. Of course, it's a pain in the butt so the idea was "if you don't like it, don't bid it".

And a lot of people didn't.

We developed provisions and protections, eventually, but the powers-that-be, in their moment of "OMG! We did something!" didn't have strong provisions for reserve pilots and re-routes.

So the company because very adept at canceling your flight, using 'recovery' provisions to re-route you to an MED and then have a reserve crew fly your original flight. So you bid and were packed for a transoceanic trip to FCO, a little rain hits JFK and now you're headed to Ghana in the rainy season with no Malarone and hopefully you have some bug spray you can leech off someone.

I have a story, best left for "over beers" about when I refused a re-assignment to a MED and the hilarity that ensued afterwards.

We like to think in terms of "best case scenario" when it comes to a new idea, but seemingly forget that the company will bend, twist and re-interpret any grey area you leave in your language. And then you have to waste negotiating capital to fix it down the road.

Ehh, you now what, never mind. What the hell do I know.
 
Cptnchia said:
I get that guys are upset about the prospect of SDPs. However, are they any less unsafe than some of the rotations we have that have a redeye built into the middle? We have some that are early morning sign day one, finish late afternoon. day two early morning with one leg finish by 0900. That night, fly a redeye into day three. Layover. Day four, early morning show to finish in the afternoon. Even though we get close to 24 off after the redeye, dY four is still an ass dragger.
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Agree 100%. Furthermore, we have trips that get to the west coast early in the AM and have a "day over" before flying a red eye out that same night. In some ways I'll take those over some of the 24 hr overnights prior to the redeye because at least I'm tired enough to sleep during the day before the redeye. Just because you have an extended overnight prior to a red eye doesn't mean that you will successfully sleep the day before your red eye. Chances are you are going to sleep in the manner you are accustomed to...meaning at night assuming you do daytime flying and you might get a nap in during the day of if you are lucky. I do A LOT of red eyes.

I don't see CDO's to be anymore dangerous than I do red eyes for the reasons above. But then again I don't view a 2 man east bound flight from JFK to DUB as being anymore hazardous than a flight that leaves at the same time from JFK to SFO yet no one complains about those. Crossing an ocean doesn't make it harder or more fatiguing. Neither is ideal but then again just because Pan Am served free dinner doesn't mean USAirways should.
 
But, but, free food is a right! So is cheap tickets! The airlines are violating my rights by making me pay. Airline travel should be free never mind the fact that I paid more for the cab ride to the airport than what the ticket cost to do a transcon!

Frikkin public.
 
jtrain609 said:
And the science says that being on a night schedule all the time is fine for safety. That's why at XJT, if you had CDO's, you had a pure line of CDO's and were expected to stay on a night schedule on your days off.

But when you start mixing CDO's in with day flying, you're asking for a fatigue call.
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Yeah we did those at colgan. The hybrid lines sucked!
 
Derg said:
Here's my opinion on the 'if you don't like them, don't bid them' angle.

Of course, if I may profess an opinion.

We had an issue with international flights heading into MED/"Malaria Endemic Destinations".

The CDC guidance that if you have a certain amount of exposure in the area, they heavily suggest Malarone before the exposure, during the time in the MED and for a period of time after leaving the MED. Of course, it's a pain in the butt so the idea was "if you don't like it, don't bid it".

And a lot of people didn't.

We developed provisions and protections, eventually, but the powers-that-be, in their moment of "OMG! We did something!" didn't have strong provisions for reserve pilots and re-routes.

So the company because very adept at canceling your flight, using 'recovery' provisions to re-route you to an MED and then have a reserve crew fly your original flight. So you bid and were packed for a transoceanic trip to FCO, a little rain hits JFK and now you're headed to Ghana in the rainy season with no Malarone and hopefully you have some bug spray you can leech off someone.

I have a story, best left for "over beers" about when I refused a re-assignment to a MED and the hilarity that ensued afterwards.

We like to think in terms of "best case scenario" when it comes to a new idea, but seemingly forget that the company will bend, twist and re-interpret any grey area you leave in your language. And then you have to waste negotiating capital to fix it down the road.

Ehh, you now what, never mind. What the hell do I know.
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Best case scenario is what most guys count on when thinking about bidding something. Couldn't agree with you more. The best case scenario for the senior CDO'S is 7-8 hours at the hotel, which is better than the old reduced rest of 8 hours. Throw in some snow storms this past February and the best case scenario went flying out the window faster than @amorris311 can finish his plate of food at Beirut in DTW.
 
We have some pairings we call "red eyes" that depart MCO at 2300, arrive in Ponce at 0200 and turn right around to MCO arriving at 0600 ish. I'm not sure if we have language to keep those isolated or not, but I just had dinner with a guy yesterday who was on reserve and had flown a 3 day, then got tagged with that "red eye." He looked like death warmed over.

I guess that's technically a CDO. @kellwolf, do you know of any language in our scheduling manual to keep those "pure," or if it even addresses them at all?
 
I would just like to point out that even AFTER the poor First Officer of the 3407 Accident was raked over the coals for commuting all night the day before her trip, guys/gals are still pushing it when it comes to commuting.

Point is, if we want stronger contractual language (which we should want) to protect CDOs and/or eliminate them, let us not forget to look in the mirror about what we do to ourself to squeeze a few extra hours at home. I know some places have looked at jumpseat records to make this point in negotiations over this.
 
Derg said:
Always ask yourself: "Is this Scheduling with Safety?"

Doesn't matter what they pay or how convenient they are for some.
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Exactly - what we allow for convenience the Company will force in excess.

There are many provisions in our contract to protect ourselves from ourselves.
 
Seggy said:
Point is, if we want stronger contractual language (which we should want) to protect CDOs and/or eliminate them, let us not forget to look in the mirror about what we do to ourself to squeeze a few extra hours at home. I know some places have looked at jumpseat records to make this point in negotiations over this.
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Or save a buck because they're cheap.

I've said it before, you can't blame ALPA, seniority, the company, or schedulers for a fatiguing schedule when you choose to shoulder none of the responsibility for your actions on an overnight.
 
learhawkerbe400 said:
If you don't like them then don't bid them. It's that simple.
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Except that it isn't. It depends heavily on seniority and the language in one's contract/agreement concerning these types of trips and forcing them on people who don't bid for them. At my company stand-ups/high speeds/CDO's are liked by a senior few and loathed by most of the rest of us riff-raff. The senior folks get their choice of these trips while the rest are forced on the schedules of people too junior to not fly them even when we bid to avoid them. Often they would show up just before or just after a multi day trip, and there is no way to change your sleep schedule to accommodate that nonsense. As a result, many of us ended up calling out fatigued and losing out on pay as a result.

At my last airline I spent a lot of time on the phone with managers discussing the safety of converting me (an AM reserve) to fly a stand-up that night after calling and waking me at 0400 to inform me that I was now "on rest" until my 2200 show time that night. I purposely bid away from stand ups/stand up reserve because I loathed doing them there as well but I still ended up flying way more than I ever cared to.

I understand a lot of this could be solved with stronger language as a way of mitigating this issue but short of rewriting/giving up negotiating capital to solve this, a lot of pilots are still going to be forced to fly trips they don't bid for and can't properly prepare for.
 
etflies said:
Except that it isn't. It depends heavily on seniority and the language in one's contract/agreement concerning these types of trips and forcing them on people who don't bid for them. At my company stand-ups/high speeds/CDO's are liked by a senior few and loathed by most of the rest of us riff-raff. The senior folks get their choice of these trips while the rest are forced on the schedules of people too junior to not fly them even when we bid to avoid them. Often they would show up just before or just after a multi day trip, and there is no way to change your sleep schedule to accommodate that nonsense. As a result, many of us ended up calling out fatigued and losing out on pay as a result.

At my last airline I spent a lot of time on the phone with managers discussing the safety of converting me (an AM reserve) to fly a stand-up that night after calling and waking me at 0400 to inform me that I was now "on rest" until my 2200 show time that night. I purposely bid away from stand ups/stand up reserve because I loathed doing them there as well but I still ended up flying way more than I ever cared to.

I understand a lot of this could be solved with stronger language as a way of mitigating this issue but short of rewriting/giving up negotiating capital to solve this, a lot of pilots are still going to be forced to fly trips they don't bid for and can't properly prepare for.
Click to expand...

Was this at a major or a regional? This thread is about CDOs at a major with a good contract, not some regional.
 
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