Delta ponders pilot sources (Flightglobal article)

dasleben said:
Well, ideally yes, but we all know that the real answer is quite different. We've all flown with guys who've barely passed training and are weak in the cockpit. If you're stronger, why not get the opportunity before the guy who barely passes his/her sim events? Again, I'm not saying that I'm that guy at this point, but wouldn't this better reward your hard work? It doesn't treat everyone equally, but again, that's kind of the point of the system. Your hard work should be rewarded, instead of rewarding mediocrity.
Click to expand...

I've been with those as well. It takes a little time but they are dealt with, and yes sometimes it can take a year. My airline doesn't have any fatalities or hull loses (pilot caused, MX goofed one up) in 66 years, flying Beech 99's all the way up to four engine Avro's. Obviously we offer a safe product doing things our way.


dasleben said:
This is true here as well, but if you work harder than the guy who never studies, doesn't give a damn, and barely passes his checking events, should you be treated the same way?
Click to expand...

At first, you are leaving pro stands out of the equation entirely to help prove your point.

dasleben said:
"Whole pilot" concept based on evaluations from multiple captains and check airmen, both in the airplane and the sim. If you're ready to upgrade, it should be apparent to those who are in a position to make that decision. I realize that it's very subjective, but that's how this sort of system would have to work to be effective.
Click to expand...

At what point is it too subjective? When it doesn't work for you anymore?
 
It's always subjective. Which is why unions exist. Guy flies plane safely for 30 years, then gets the wrong way with a check airman or Federale, and he's suddenly Dangerous? I've seen exactly ONE old-timer who was Dangerous, and he got that way because he didn't care anymore, not because he was insufficiently scrutinized by the Gummint or personally incompetent. Idiot sim-evals test one's ability to memorize dumb stuff, 80% of which you'll never use. Meanwhile, you still can't Test for Judgment.
 
jynxyjoe said:
You're right. Death to unions!
Click to expand...


Who said "death to unions"? Not me. I say death to the idea of the federal government being given the power to force everyone in a given profession into a union and a nationwide seniority list. Which amendment was that?
 
Federal government forcing you to be in a union, aroo?! Do tell!
 
everybody's chasing $$.. regionals will have an exodus but imo that is part of their business model. The folks at the top of the payscales move on and the regionals get another 20k/yr newhire FO. At some point when the pilots run short it may be cheaper for the majors to train their own pilots rather than compete with each other to draw talent. This has already happened with airlines overseas, Lufthansa, Qantas, British Airways, and Cathay among others. Same thing, training costs are high and qualified pilots are few, so the airlines just train their own from scratch.
 
Gonzo said:
What would you based your merit system on? I have never gotten an answer to this question.
Click to expand...
I fell like I am taking advantage of the seniority system. I left my job with only 12 months experience with an authorized leave of absence and when I return I will be able to hold captain. In a merit based system, I would return to the status that I left but due to the seniority based system I can return to a captain level position as if I never left. Is that fair?
 
A merit based system for upgrade wouldn't be fair to the captains I displace, because due to this merger, I'm ready to upgrade NNNOOOOWWWW!!!!! :)
 
subpilot said:
I fell like I am taking advantage of the seniority system. I left my job with only 12 months experience with an authorized leave of absence and when I return I will be able to hold captain. In a merit based system, I would return to the status that I left but due to the seniority based system I can return to a captain level position as if I never left. Is that fair?
Click to expand...
You didn't answer the question. What metrics would be used to determine whether or not someone is more deserving than someone else?


Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk
 
Doug Taylor said:
Federal government forcing you to be in a union, aroo?! Do tell!
Click to expand...

jynxyjoe said:
As an operating condition for all 121 carriers, all employment for flight crew positions must come from a approved national seniority list in which contain union members in good standing.
Click to expand...

Maybe I missed something here, but who else besides the government would have the authority to impose the operating condition and approve the list? If I start a new 121 operation and I don't want to participate in this crap, who is going to make me? The only answer I can think of is government.
 
FL900 said:
Maybe I missed something here, but who else besides the government would have the authority to impose the operating condition and approve the list? If I start a new 121 operation and I don't want to participate in this crap, who is going to make me? The only answer I can think of is government.
Click to expand...

Are you talking national seniority list? We don't have a national seniority list.

Better to address real issues in front of us than get all upset about something that has not and may not happen.
 
I didn't bring up the national seniority list. Someone else did, and I was responding to his suggestion that it would be the best fix for the topic of this thread. And someone advocating the surrender of personal liberty in exchange for collectivism is a very real issue that is indeed in front of us.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
You didn't answer the question. What metrics would be used to determine whether or not someone is more deserving than someone else?
Click to expand...

The metrics would have to be subjective for such a system to work. We can all agree that being a good captain is not an objective thing; it's more than passing a checkride, and it's more than supporting your crew. IMO, the decision should reflect that. It rewards the good, and keeps weak pilots out of the left seat.
 
The weird thing is Delta is pondering this when the last job fair I attended that Delta appeared at there was over qualified 500 pilots and a 5hr waiting just to talk to them. Delta has nothing to worry about. The regionals are the ones who really need to worry if there is ever a looming pilot shortage.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Eh, look at it from my perspective. We all get treated equally and (hopefully) fairly. Everyone likes flying with me, I like flying with everyone. I don't want to be treated better, I know I've got a lot of guys in front of me. I've made mistakes, I've been forgiven. One of these was a big old HR mistake during one of our monthly witch hunts.

As long as the company is a good one, and we are all going to be there for 30-40 years who cares who started where? It's a damn long time to be judging yourself off "merit" when the goal is one large safety conscience operation, and if you do everything right you shouldn't stick out.

Am I that far off?
Click to expand...

Very good rebutal. And That helped me see it from your shoes. But at my company, I was passed up for upgrade by someone who was simply more qualified than I was. I didn't understand it at the time, but now that I have had a chance to look at and understand why, I get it. Am I alright with it, no, nt really, but I understand it.
 
Gonzo said:
But at what point does TT become meaningless. At the company I work for 3,000TT is upgrade mins.
Click to expand...

It's not just time that should matter. Like dasleben says, it's the whole person concept. Look at it like the guy who recomends a person to HR for an interview. Why not do the same thing for an upgrade rather than just letting someone bid it and get it simply because of how long they have been there? Make it similar to the hiring process.

"Why do you think you are ready for upgrade?"

"What qualities can you bring to the table as a captain for our company?"
 
FL900 said:
I didn't bring up the national seniority list. Someone else did, and I was responding to his suggestion that it would be the best fix for the topic of this thread. And someone advocating the surrender of personal liberty in exchange for collectivism is a very real issue that is indeed in front of us.
Click to expand...

You really don't have personal liberty as an employee. The employer says "fly to Omaha" you can't say "Welp, we're going to fly to Lincoln instead." The FAA says 1600RVR is below your minimums, you can't pull the liberty card and shoot a Cat-I.
 
jtrain609 said:
A merit based system for upgrade wouldn't be fair to the captains I displace, because due to this merger, I'm ready to upgrade NNNOOOOWWWW!!!!! :)
Click to expand...

images



But, to expand on it a little, with a merrit based system, there would no longer be someone being displaced. When the position becomes availible, then the upgrades start.
 
mshunter said:
But, to expand on it a little, with a merrit based system, there would no longer be someone being displaced. When the position becomes availible, then the upgrades start.
Click to expand...

That is assuming a lot.

If the whole point of a merit-based system is to only promote someone who the company wants to be in the position, then who is to say the company would not hesitate to demote someone for the opposite reason?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top