Delta off the Runway - LGA

[surreal1221]

A lot will be learned.

Carry on.

USA 5050 USA405 COA795 DAL554 N117FJ All accidents on RWY13/31 in the last twenty five years or so. Think that might send up a red flag to someone?

Disregard previous reply. Multiple sources stating 13 was the landing runway. 13 has an EMAS at the end, so it appears they went left beyond the WELCOME TO NEW YORK CITY marquee.

 

[X-Forces]

Makes me think of the cabin panic/crash prep scene in Airplane.

EVERYONE ASSUME A GOOD CRASH POSITION!!!

 

[Joshwa]

Without knowing what went on with this accident, surely the variability of reported braking action is why TALPA came about? It was sold to us here the other side of the Atlantic as something that had come out of FAA investigations into incidents like the Jackson Hole accident to provide a consistent method of assessing landing performance based on conditions.

Is it not in wide use in the US yet?

 

[deadstick]

On the brightside, Looks repairable

I bet the fuselage is rippled like a mother...it hit the wall with enough force to pop it up an over. I dunno...

I really with we could measure braking action from the anti-skid and accelerometers and automatically uplink that data to a central database. Then we'd have usable, scientific, up-to-date information about actual conditions than simple subjective observations.

There you go thinking logically again. You have to stop.

 

[CaptBill]

Two observations: Never ever ever ever talk to the media as a crew member or as a "pilot expert." Your comments will be mis-quoted, mis-characterized, taken out of context and used to sensationalize "their" story. Don't do it!
Secondly, your decisions as a pilot will be second guessed by everybody. Be careful and make prudent decisions that you can comfortably defend. Don't be afraid to say no, unable, going around or we're diverting to xxxx. We all fall into the trap that it can't happen to us. I'm sure the Delta crew felt the same way this morning.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Anyone who uses Aerodata and cost indexing has this capability. Aerodata keeps track of winds aloft, and they get better at forecasting the Cost Indexing as the day goes on and as the system compiles data from airborne flights.

Its pretty cool.

It's fantastically inaccurate on my airplane, but that's a side story.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Two observations: Never ever ever ever talk to the media as a crew member or as a "pilot expert." Your comments will be mis-quoted, mis-characterized, taken out of context and used to sensationalize "their" story. Don't do it!
Secondly, your decisions as a pilot will be second guessed by everybody. Be careful and make prudent decisions that you can comfortably defend. Don't be afraid to say no, unable, going around or we're diverting to xxxx. We all fall into the trap that it can't happen to us. I'm sure the Delta crew felt the same way this morning.

If you do this enough, it might; why you do what you do is almost as important, I think, as what you do.

That's the devil with things that are extremely remote: it's still not "impossible," just "highly improbable." 1e-5 is not zero.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

It's fantastically inaccurate on my airplane, but that's a side story.

Can you guys do leg-by-leg winds and temps? We get climb, cruise, and descent and cannot update the winds in flight as far as I can tell.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Can you guys do leg-by-leg winds and temps? We get climb, cruise, and descent and cannot update the winds in flight as far as I can tell.

We can, but we're officially trained to slam in the average cruise wind/ISA deviation in PERF INIT 3/3 and call that good enough.

Maybe when I grow up I can have datalink winds.

 

[touch-n-go]

Man. Landing 13 at LGA at least it skidded left towards the fence as opposed to going right towards the ramp.

 

[AA34]

Just heard Sheppard Smith report:

"It occurred on Runway 13, which is thirteen degrees..."

 

[Zapphod Beblebrox]

USA 5050
USA405
COA795
DAL554
N117FJ
All accidents on RWY13/31 in the last twenty five years or so. Think that might send up a red flag to someone?

Remembering a quote from a picture on a crew room wall long ago before the age of the internet..

Hey what's Delta doing parking at a US Air gate....

 

[Zapphod Beblebrox]

Just listening to the Live ATC clip it sounds like he gives a "Good" braking action reported by an A319 right around that time.

I'll tell you what though....Sometimes you can see where everyone has made their turnoff on the same taxiway, and beyond it the RWY looks like hell. Happened to us at JFK not too long. CA lands kinda long (right at end of TDZ lights) and we end up in the snow past where everyone was making the turnoff. Went from Good (where everyone had been) to Poor...

I will add this little tidbit of useless aeronautical knowledge and experience. I have a lot of time in the 80 series and it is the worst possible aircraft on contaminated and slick surfaces. any attempt to turn will result in the nose wheel breaking friction and the mass of the airplane will follow the track when the nose gear lost traction.

With any speed whatsoever the nose gear ability to track and guide the airplane is minimal. it is far worse than the Boeing 73 or the Airbus. There is almost no traction on that nose gear in slippery conditions. The airplane is OK stopping straight ahead. You must slow to a crawl before turning or using a lot of nose gear input. To do otherwise will induce a nasty skid and subsequent wild ride.

This could be a contributing factor.

 

[Cptnchia]

Without knowing what went on with this accident, surely the variability of reported braking action is why TALPA came about? It was sold to us here the other side of the Atlantic as something that had come out of FAA investigations into incidents like the Jackson Hole accident to provide a consistent method of assessing landing performance based on conditions.

Is it not in wide use in the US yet?

Never heard of it

 

[wheelsup]

I will add this little tidbit of useless aeronautical knowledge and experience. I have a lot of time in the 80 series and it is the worst possible aircraft on contaminated and slick surfaces. any attempt to turn will result in the nose wheel breaking friction and the mass of the airplane will follow the track when the nose gear lost traction.

With any speed whatsoever the nose gear ability to track and guide the airplane is minimal. it is far worse than the Boeing 73 or the Airbus. There is almost no traction on that nose gear in slippery conditions. The airplane is OK stopping straight ahead. You must slow to a crawl before turning or using a lot of nose gear input. To do otherwise will induce a nasty skid and subsequent wild ride.

This could be a contributing factor.

 

[Kingairer]

"Upon postflight inspection, nose gear appears worn".

 

[Screaming_Emu]

Two observations: Never ever ever ever talk to the media as a crew member or as a "pilot expert." Your comments will be mis-quoted, mis-characterized, taken out of context and used to sensationalize "their" story. Don't do it!
Secondly, your decisions as a pilot will be second guessed by everybody. Be careful and make prudent decisions that you can comfortably defend. Don't be afraid to say no, unable, going around or we're diverting to xxxx. We all fall into the trap that it can't happen to us. I'm sure the Delta crew felt the same way this morning.

Don't do anything that you don't want your family to read about in the news the next day.

That's seriously my number one motivator to doing my job the way I do.

 

[Joshwa]

TALPA = Takeoff And Landing Performance Assessment

I have excised the table below from our information. The idea is based on the reported conditions you can estimate the braking action. You only use PIREPs if the reported braking action is less than given in the table. It was developed by the FAA and I assumed you were all using it given it had made it here.

 

[jamestlester]

Noob question here for you jet jockeys: if the metar looks like FZRA SN, absent previous reports do you just assume the removal crews have taken care of it?

Edit: looks like Joshua answered it while I was typing

 

[Trip7]

I will add this little tidbit of useless aeronautical knowledge and experience. I have a lot of time in the 80 series and it is the worst possible aircraft on contaminated and slick surfaces. any attempt to turn will result in the nose wheel breaking friction and the mass of the airplane will follow the track when the nose gear lost traction.

With any speed whatsoever the nose gear ability to track and guide the airplane is minimal. it is far worse than the Boeing 73 or the Airbus. There is almost no traction on that nose gear in slippery conditions. The airplane is OK stopping straight ahead. You must slow to a crawl before turning or using a lot of nose gear input. To do otherwise will induce a nasty skid and subsequent wild ride.

This could be a contributing factor.

My biggest concern with the 88 landing on contaminated runways are the thrust reversers. Not only are they notorious for coming out asymmetrically, above 1.3 EPR it'll blank the rudder. Additionally, on the landing rollout you have to develop a cross scan between keeping the airplane on the centerline and looking at your EPR and/or N1 gauges to see what in the world the each reverser is up to. Landing with the reversers split to get equal EPR settings are common. They truly are like a box of chocolate, you'll never know what you're gonna get. Pull reversers with similar force on two different airplanes one airplane you barely crack the buckets the other airplane you're rapidly approaching or exceeding EPR limit. Taming 88 reversers is a skill that takes a while to acquire. A Captain once joked "When you figure it out give me a call".

A full investigation will undoubtedly determine the cause but when I heard the plane went off the side of the runway those reversers were the first thing that popped in my mind.