Delta MEC oks more 76 jets...

[pilotlight]

Could this ever happen?
Delta just brings ASA, Comair, Compass, Pinnacle, Mesaba on to the Delta pilot and flight attendant list based on Date of Hire. Everyone is below everyone on the Delta list. I didn't say Skywest or Shuttle America because they fly for other airlines besides Delta as well. I honestly don't know what you would do in that situation but I would look for as fair a way as possible.

 

[H46Bubba]

Could this ever happen?
Delta just brings ASA, Comair, Compass, Pinnacle, Mesaba on to the Delta pilot and flight attendant list based on Date of Hire. Everyone is below everyone on the Delta list. I didn't say Skywest or Shuttle America because they fly for other airlines besides Delta as well. I honestly don't know what you would do in that situation but I would look for as fair a way as possible.

The most plausable scenario would be that Compass would be put on the Delta masterlist and either merge Comair and Mesaba or merge lists, but keep seperate certificates like Republic/CHQ/Shuttle America has.

 

[OldTownPilot]

:sitaware:

I bet he'd be pretty surprised if one showed up at his "property."

Yep, I would be. But I guaran-dagum-tee you that that will never happen. It would be interesting trying to de-ice it with a pump sprayer. Would I fly it where I work at right now? Hell yeah.

Velo with that logic, DL, US, and UA have outsourced 100 seat flying too. And that CRJ-1000 is an easy transition from a -700 so you might as well pile AA, and your own airline on that list too. :banghead:

I guess that is the difference in looking at this logically and legally rather than emotionally.

 

[pilotlight]

The most plausable scenario would be that Compass would be put on the Delta masterlist and either merge Comair and Mesaba or merge lists, but keep seperate certificates like Republic/CHQ/Shuttle America has.

Thats not plausable for Joe pilot from ASA or Pinnacle who have wanted to work for Delta their whole lives. Im sorry, I know i am going to take a lot of heat for this but why should compass get special treatment and get brought right up to mainline because of the plane that they fly? If compass was flying Crj200's would you guys want them to flow up into Delta? Compass should have never been created, it was a chance for ALPA to keep 76 seat jets on mainline property where they belong, but instead they were farmed out again to a new regional because I guess 5 regionals wasn't enough. I know that NWA was in bankruptcy back then but still, it was a chance.
Disclamer: That rant was not directed at you comass pilots, I know a lot of you are furloughed mainline pilots from other majors. The point of this post is that if you are going to bring the 76 seat jets back to mainline, don't stop at compass, bring all the 900's that skywest, pinnacle, mesaba, comair, and asa operate as well. That way we all have more oportunites at the majors.

 

[Velocipede]

Could this ever happen?
Delta just brings ASA, Comair, Compass, Pinnacle, Mesaba on to the Delta pilot and flight attendant list based on Date of Hire..

Nope it will never happen. DoH has gone the way of the dodo. Its extinct. Everything is based on "career expectations" now. ALPA/ALPA mergers use the merger/frag policy and DoH has been gone from that for years. Everyone else uses, by law, Allegheny/Mohawk and there's nothing about DoH in there either.

I bet he'd be pretty surprised if one showed up at his "property."

Actually, you might be surprised how little it would surprise me. Only it won't be in Alaska colors. It'll be an RAH (or some other Ejet operator) outsource like the one that has killed Midwest. In fact, AS management has rumbled about an outsource already. Perhaps its a contract negotiating ploy. Perhaps not. The Midwest debacle has proven outsourcing as a viable way to kill off good paying Union jobs.

Velo with that logic, DL, US, and UA have outsourced 100 seat flying too. And that CRJ-1000 is an easy transition from a -700 so you might as well pile AA, and your own airline on that list too.

Like I said, above, I AM including Alaska in the list. No question about it, Legacy airline MECs screwed the pooch years ago when they scoped out RJ flying.

 

[surreal1221]

Why the hell should an ASA, Comair, or Mesaba pilot get placed on a list higher than someone hired into Delta?

So some 1979 hire at ASA (with DOH) can jump ahead of guys who were hired by Delta last year or the year before (going back to 1980 date of hires at Delta)?

You got to be kidding me. That's not how the system works and I'll be extremely pissed off if that ever happens.

The career RJ guys made their bed and the majority of the ones I talk to can't stand any of the major airline pilots, so why the hell should they be afforded some theoretical DOH integration onto a mainline list?

They wanted to fly RJs all their life, now they can deal with it. For everyone else, apply and if you're hired, you go to the bottom of the list.

edit: Velo provided the factual basis for why this WONT happen, and I provided the emotional basis why it SHOULDN'T happen.

 

[Velocipede]

Easy there, surreal. DoH isn't ever happening again unless BOTH MECs agree to it. And I sincerely don't see the DAL MEC agreeing to that.

 

[surreal1221]

I'm cool boss. . .I'm cool.

 

[Velocipede]

The question was hopelessly hypothetical.

Just like the "If there was a strike and there were NO jobs available, would you cross a picket line?"

Why? Because the question is flawed on the face of it. Just like there is always work available if you are willing to do it, DoH will NEVER happen again unless agreed to by both parties.

You might as well ask "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

 

[Ian_J]

Actually, you might be surprised how little it would surprise me.

I believe the person you were referring to works as an engineer at a non-aviation company. That's why I said he'd be surprised if a CRJ9 showed up on property.

Just a little humor, brother.

 

[Polar742]

Who's cool with flying a 70-seater? I would have been.

Saying that would be like me saying who wants to fly a 737 for the rest of their career.

Who cares what the equipment is (for the peanut gallery: within reason.) for the right money and QoL.

When I looked at all the pay scales at the majors, looking at the bottom equipment on the list, at basic guarantee at there here's what I would have lost: Pay rate for almost a decade would be lower than my payrate I had (I was looking at min guarantee, not what people were actually flying or getting hired into, as the cycle has shown, what's true today isn't tomorrow.)

Sitting RSV for a long period. After you talk to a 20 yr pilot at US air who sat RSV for the majority of their career in DCA on short call, you get the heebie-jeebies.

Days off. I had the days off I wanted. Weekends or holidays or any other day.

Why'd I leave?
The company culture changed and I wouldn't accept it.

The CBA didn't keep pace with the changes at the company, then again no no one could have guessed things would have unfolded over the life of the CBA as it did.

What would have gotten me to stay?

A couple simple things

1) Obvious, and shouldnt' need listed. More money. But no matter what job, that's always nice.

2) More flexibility with QoL issues. I have absolutely no problem hustlin' ass for my company when I'm at work, just some basic respect as a person would be nice.

a) Let me fly my 1000 hours a year. That breaks down to 83.3 hours a month, I'll do 7 hours a day of flying for 12 days. Then leave me alone.

b) If I want to swap a trip that sits on the same thing, or I want to fly a different trip for the same amount of time on different days, if I'm legal let me do it.

c) If you frequently open and close bases as your partners move their flying on what seems to be based on a Ouiji board or where a dude in marketing's kid colored dots on a map that week, make the trips commutable in and out. (I've been in the game long enough. The people who fly originators or terminators in a base are called "junior" - just like I am now)

3) Get my paycheck right. If the station changes the times, and I call up payroll, get my money in good time.

That's it.

I know alot of it are CBA issues, but that's what it would have taken me to stay around. Even though it was on top of this list, money was far from the top reason why I left.

Note to scheduling types: If you cancel a flight out of ORD for a crew that's based in IND on their last day, and the Captain was a senior-ish line check pilot just be nice and rent the crew a car back home. It's alot cheaper than the OT you pay.

 

[pilotlight]

Why the hell should an ASA, Comair, or Mesaba pilot get placed on a list higher than someone hired into Delta?

So some 1979 hire at ASA (with DOH) can jump ahead of guys who were hired by Delta last year or the year before (going back to 1980 date of hires at Delta)?

You got to be kidding me. That's not how the system works and I'll be extremely pissed off if that ever happens.

The career RJ guys made their bed and the majority of the ones I talk to can't stand any of the major airline pilots, so why the hell should they be afforded some theoretical DOH integration onto a mainline list?

They wanted to fly RJs all their life, now they can deal with it. For everyone else, apply and if you're hired, you go to the bottom of the list.

edit: Velo provided the factual basis for why this WONT happen, and I provided the emotional basis why it SHOULDN'T happen.

If you are referring to my post, I said they would all be below Delta pilots

 

[MusketeerMan]

Actually, you might be surprised how little it would surprise me. Only it won't be in Alaska colors. It'll be an RAH (or some other Ejet operator) outsource like the one that has killed Midwest.

Wow, I actually think you're serious here. You once again just don't get it. When our management agreed to fly planes for Midwest, all we did was prolong their life by a few months. They've been a sinking ship for a looooong time and I really do wish we never would have loaned them any $$..if we hadn't, they'd have been under already and if BB really wanted to grab the certificate, he could have tried to get it after the fact.

"We killed Midwest"...sorry pops...they killed themselves. It's the worst run airline I've ever witnessed and don't deserve to be in business.

 

[Velocipede]

Wow, I actually think you're serious here. You once again just don't get it.

You know something, Andy. You remind me of the Shakespearean quote, "Me thinks the lady doth protest TOO much." I think you're carrying around a load of guilt because you KNOW that the RAH outsource was the coup de grace. You guys (RAH) pulled the trigger that put the final bullet into Midwest's brain.

When our management agreed to fly planes for Midwest, all we did was prolong their life by a few months.

For your benefit, lets review the facts. Midwest management demanded outlandish pay cuts from thier pilots using the threat of outsourcing to back up their demands. When the pilots refused to acquiesce to their blackmail, they outsourced to RAH. You guys got their flying. Legacy wage flying that's now being done at RJ wages.

They've been a sinking ship for a looooong time and I really do wish we never would have loaned them any $$..if we hadn't, they'd have been under already and if BB really wanted to grab the certificate, he could have tried to get it after the fact.

Instead the "loan" was really a bribe to ensure RAH got the outsource contract. Why pick up another certificate and go through all the trouble and government hassles when you can just grab the flying through an outsource agreement.

"We killed Midwest"...sorry pops...they killed themselves. It's the worst run airline I've ever witnessed and don't deserve to be in business.

Sorry yourself, sonny. Since you obviously have limited experience in the airline business, let me explain a couple things to you. Midwest was probably one of the best small airlines going. Great service, great culture and a very loyal MKE passenger base. Originally owned and operated by Kimberely-Clark, they were essentially a corporate operation that also provided transportation to the general public.

The downhill slide began when K-C sold out. It took years for the decline to happen, but death came quickly once the outsource vulture appeared.

Squeal all you want about how innocent of wrongdoing your pilot group is, but the essential fact is that there go 400 GOOD paying pilot jobs replaced by RJ wages. Considering your age and status in the industry, you might want to adjust your career goals to retiring in an RJ.

 

[Firebird2XC]

I think it's funny how people talk about 'retiring in an RJ' as if it would be a bad thing.

It's a jet. It goes zoom zoom in the flight levels.

I can fly long haul for hours or short hops.

In the end, at my current company, retiring in an RJ would put me easily over $100K a year.

I'll take that and run with it, and push for a stronger IAI in the process.

I don't expect my employer to make me rich because I work for them. I expect to take the money that I make from my employer and use that as a tool to make myself rich in other avenues.

Money is a tool, and I will not be a slave to a single source for that tool.

>shrugs< Sometimes, I think it's interesting how people talk about 'career expectations'. Expectations are the precursor to disappointment time and time again. As long as my employer and I can hack out an agreement that allows me some degree of upward trend, I'm happy.

I'm done rating the degree of my success and compensation based on how it "used to be". This is how it IS right now, and I'm going to start here and look forward to work on improving things from here.

I picked my present employer because I seriously plan to spend the rest of my career here if I must, and might just stay if it suits me simply because I can.

Like I said above- it's all the same. At this point we're all just quibbling about size.

 

[kellwolf]

In the end, at my current company, retiring in an RJ would put me easily over $100K a year.

Sadly, I can't do that at my current regional.....yet. And to hear management talk, that kind of money would bankrupt the airline. Well, if they haven't bankrupted us yet by buying another airline, 30 Q400s, 16 -900s and losing millions of dollars in auction rate securities (and by "not bankrupting" I mean still managed to turn a profit quarterly), I'm pretty sure a decent pilot contract won't sink the ship either.

I don't see how some of the higher seniority guys can stand working here for decades. I'd have gone nuts after year 5.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Sadly, I can't do that at my current regional.....yet. And to hear management talk, that kind of money would bankrupt the airline. Well, if they haven't bankrupted us yet by buying another airline, 30 Q400s, 16 -900s and losing millions of dollars in auction rate securities (and by "not bankrupting" I mean still managed to turn a profit quarterly), I'm pretty sure a decent pilot contract won't sink the ship either.

I don't see how some of the higher seniority guys can stand working here for decades. I'd have gone nuts after year 5.

True. For the most part, the company will annoy us if it suits them, but usually isn't too bad about things.

That's the primary difference, really. Right now, the company wants us complacent with them. If they wanted otherwise, that's what we'd get- otherwise, because the RLA doesn't really give us the teeth to fight back effectively.

That's what you guys have to deal with. The slow pace of litigation doesn't keep up with the high pace of wacky airline business, especially when it's contrary to dealings "in good faith".

Ultimately, we need to shore up the failings in the RLA, NMB, and a few other government acronyms to ensure fair, unbiased dealings in labor disputes before we'll restore any balance to the situation.

Best of luck to you guys at Pinnacle. Hopefully we can all get the legislation in place in order to make things happen more fairly in the future.

 

[H46Bubba]

Thats not plausable for Joe pilot from ASA or Pinnacle who have wanted to work for Delta their whole lives. Im sorry, I know i am going to take a lot of heat for this but why should compass get special treatment and get brought right up to mainline because of the plane that they fly? If compass was flying Crj200's would you guys want them to flow up into Delta? Compass should have never been created, it was a chance for ALPA to keep 76 seat jets on mainline property where they belong, but instead they were farmed out again to a new regional because I guess 5 regionals wasn't enough. I know that NWA was in bankruptcy back then but still, it was a chance.
Disclamer: That rant was not directed at you comass pilots, I know a lot of you are furloughed mainline pilots from other majors. The point of this post is that if you are going to bring the 76 seat jets back to mainline, don't stop at compass, bring all the 900's that skywest, pinnacle, mesaba, comair, and asa operate as well. That way we all have more oportunites at the majors.

I'm sorry if you feel that way but most of the Delta pilots are already looking to put Compass on their list. Why not ASA or 9E? Because Comapss is already owned by Delta. There's very little cost involved for a merger. It's assets are just absorbed into mainline. Compass pilots are already represented by DALPA. It's just a matter of time. To take it a step further, if they want all 70+ seat lift under mainline, then they'll absorb Comair and Mesaba for the same reasons. Delta can only absorb the aircraft they or their subsidiaries own. If your a contracted carrier flying a 76 seat aircraft that isn't owned by Delta, then you'll just have to cease flying those aircraft under the DCI branding. It's nothing against the pilots from the contract carriers, it's just business and taking the path of least resistance and cost. I'm sure if they need the additional aircraft they will make offers to the contract carriers to take over their leases and hire pilots to staff them, so the contract carriers won't be left in the dust, if this were to play out.

 

[kellwolf]

I'm sorry if you feel that way but most of the Delta pilots are already looking to put Compass on their list. Why not ASA or 9E? Because Comapss is already owned by Delta. There's very little cost involved for a merger. It's assets are just absorbed into mainline. Compass pilots are already represented by DALPA. It's just a matter of time. To take it a step further, if they want all 70+ seat lift under mainline, then they'll absorb Comair and Mesaba for the same reasons. Delta can only absorb the aircraft they or their subsidiaries own. If your a contracted carrier flying a 76 seat aircraft that isn't owned by Delta, then you'll just have to cease flying those aircraft under the DCI branding. It's nothing against the pilots from the contract carriers, it's just business and taking the path of least resistance and cost. I'm sure if they need the additional aircraft they will make offers to the contract carriers to take over their leases and hire pilots to staff them, so the contract carriers won't be left in the dust, if this were to play out.

For what it's worth, Pinnacle does have a "preferential hiring" agreement in our DCI contract. Granted, so does just about every OTHER DCI carrier. Seeing has just about every other regional flies for Delta at this point, I don't see how that really helps us.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Previously in the flight he asked me what I thought about our local ALPA leadership asking for a dues increase for six months to pay for COBRA for our furloughed pilots who would not have any other avenue of health insurance. Nevertheless, I come to find out he doesn't approve of it as he thinks it's a handout to those who didn't prepare for a furlough. A handout. . .:banghead:.

Did this jackwad realize that you were one of the guys getting furloughed?