Delta MEC oks more 76 jets...
- Thread starter SoCalAprch
- Start date
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Cheers to that. If management is going to turn the company into a national/big boy company as opposed to a subcontract regional operator, the pilots need to be compensated at a level appropriate to their new found positions relative to the industry.
Good luck.
On another aspect.
Say RAH becomes the new Midwest Express Airlines. Say they are competing with their Mainline partners routes that they also do contract regional lift for. Interesting situation, perhaps a conflict of interest? Would their respective mainline partners decide to seek an escape from a contract as they don't want to be farming out contract flying to a company that is directly competing with them on those routes. Hopefully I typed our my thoughts well enough for someone else to understand what I'm thinking. If not, well. . .damn.
Polar742
All the responsibility none of the authority
Why is that significant I ask?
If the management of the legacies don't want to create good QoL and paying jobs, it's up to pilot groups to create good jobs where they work.
Hats off to guys like Seggy and Cruise, and the legions of others that aren't recognized, for working to improve their situations.
Big jet, little jet, turboprop. No matter what seat you're in, right now there's a very high probability that you will stay there for a long time.
Time to get over the "stepping stone" mentality...
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
>>applauds<< I done been sayin' that for months and months now.
Welcome to the team, mang.
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
The big problem is that there are people out there that are just fine flying a 70 seat jet around until age 65. There aren't enough that are willing to get together with their co-workers and agree on one thing. A union actually unifying is very rare. And some people get mad about it. I don't. Doesn't mean I'm resigned. I'm just looking at reality and hoping that everyone gets what they want. Why do you think TV shows like "Survivor" work so well?
Cruise
Well-Known Member
ABSOLUTELY! Look, I want to get out of here.....ASAP, if not sooner.
However, that just might not ever happen. Time and time again, we are seeing the downward shift in flying from the big iron to the replacement tubes. So, we need to do as much as we can to improve where we're at NOW. As sad as it is, the regional level isn't the 'stepping stone' it is supposed to be. As a matter of fact, that thought process is a plague on our profession. It fosters complacency and willingness to accept less-than-acceptable compensation in hopes of moving on in a few years. Unfortunately, it's just not realistic anymore. We need to collectively WAKE UP and do everything in our power to improve pay/ work rules at the regional level, thereby solidifying a future for those of us currently slogging it out in the trenches and for those yet to join our ranks.
I could go on w/ the rant....but I'll spare everyone. Suffice it to say.......this STEPPING STONE mentality must be exterminated....NOW.
Thanks for the bump, Polar! We're doing what we can to make it better!
Velocipede
New Member
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Merely was a scenario. Yet you have said what I essentially was trying to say.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I'm all for that, however being in contract negotiations for 3 years (and the senior guys even longer than that) has made me pessimistic. What happens if RAH gets just another regional contract? I mean, a top tier contract for a "regional," but sub-par for a major while at the same time becoming the "new" Midwest Airlines? It was said earlier that there are tons of guys that are actually happy flying 70-76 seat airplanes around for what they're getting now. Couple those with the guys that are thinking "1000 TPIC and I'm out," and it gets hard. We've got plenty of both where I am.
Heck, we just had the "Why didn't the union agree to the first and second year FO pay raises the company offered?" fight break out....AGAIN. At this point, I think it's all in the hands of the negotiating committee and the MEC over here. 'Cause if it were left up to the pilot group, despite the 99% strike vote, I think whatever comes across the table is gonna get approved as long as there's a raise involved.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Heck, on my last three day trip I flew with a captain who said, and I'm paraphrasing. . .
"Once I get 1000 TPIC I'm out to Southwest."
O RLY? Their door is just waiting WIDE OPEN just for you huh? :banghead:
Previously in the flight he asked me what I thought about our local ALPA leadership asking for a dues increase for six months to pay for COBRA for our furloughed pilots who would not have any other avenue of health insurance. Nevertheless, I come to find out he doesn't approve of it as he thinks it's a handout to those who didn't prepare for a furlough. A handout. . .:banghead:
Anyway. . .moving on.
"Once I get 1000 TPIC I'm out to Southwest."
O RLY? Their door is just waiting WIDE OPEN just for you huh? :banghead:
Previously in the flight he asked me what I thought about our local ALPA leadership asking for a dues increase for six months to pay for COBRA for our furloughed pilots who would not have any other avenue of health insurance. Nevertheless, I come to find out he doesn't approve of it as he thinks it's a handout to those who didn't prepare for a furlough. A handout. . .:banghead:
Anyway. . .moving on.
deadstick
Well-Known Member
For awhile now, I've felt that ALPA should send "Jr Birdman(woman)" memberships to everybody how gets a commercial license. If they instill this mentality/mindset early on, then people will (hopefully) become more active. This industry is a game of musical chairs. You never know when the music will stop and whether you'll get a chair of left standing.
As it has been mentioned, some are content with staying at a regional. It can be very hard to go back to being the most jr on a new list and 1st yr FO pay. If you have a family and already live in base, that move is even harder. I can really see the value in that.
Both the people who want to stay and those who want to move on need a strong mainline carrier. The one who stays needs one that will keep the regionals feeding the mainline network. The one who wants to move up needs a stable company (that is hiring) and has long-term viability. So, how does this work? Bigger planes (better for career regional pilot) at the regional lowers the operating cost, but doesn't promote growth for the mainline operation (worse for the future mainline pilot).
If the regional cannot offer bigger planes (to favor mainline growth), then pay or QOL coulds be trade-offs, but this increases the overhead (need more people to crew the planes).
What is working against the career regional pilot is that the company really doesn't want them staying that long -- the upper end of the payscale would cost them too much.
So, I know this is all obvious and has been said before, what solutions are there?
One company...one list? Pre-XJT IPO if CAL merged everything? I dunno. I think that the company would need some plan to off-set the increased labor cost (the 1st yr CAL FO of today would now have 4+ years of longevity). Maybe that is found in not paying the profit of the regional.
So...that's it. I'm done. Brain hurts. No one pilot group can fix it. People from a mainline AND the supporting regionals will have to work towards a common goal. No one side will be able to dictate the terms. Now if there was only a way to organize these labor forces into doing this....
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
A lot of guys here have gotten into that trap. Some simply have gotten into debt so badly they can't afford to go back to first year FO pay even at a major. Some just don't want to give up the days off. It IS hard to give up $75K a year and 18 days off to go back to making $30-47/hr on reserve, even if it's just for a year. That's exactly why I'm trying to build up savings right now, so I CAN make the jump without making my family miserable. I'm determined not to get stuck against the glass ceiling at the regionals.
Agree. Mainline needs to hold the line on scope while regionals need to fight for better pay and work rules. Problem is, too often, it falls into an "us vs them" mentality, and even I'm guilty of slipping into that. Heck, most of the time we can't even get two majors to work together.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
Last time I checked an E-170 isn't a 100 seater.
Sometimes the crap that you spew trying to preach it as gospel, yet is factually wrong, is actually quite funny to read.
MusketeerMan
Well-Known Member
Facts are not important to Velo...
And Kellwolf...you get it...great advice and a great outlook.
sopdan
Well-Known Member
I count 13 on the Jan. 19th seniority list.
Plus a few that are still eligible, but haven't flowed up.Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Personally I think alot of people still have it backwards.
RJ flying? Sure! Why not?
We've just got to deal with the fact that an airline pilot at a so-called "Regional Airline" does the same job with the same criteria and standards as a pilot as a "Major" or "Legacy" Carrier.
RJ is not short for "Regional Jet", it's short for "Replacement Jet".
We've got to accept that the whole industry was out-maneuvered and suckered into a gigantic C-scale of wages, work rules, and career expectations.
All the same, that doesn't have to be the end of hope in our careers at any level.
Here's how it works.
Instead of trying to 'take back' something that's over a decade into existence and likely to continue in some form for decades more, just go with it.
Instead of fighting to take back or negate flying at the so-called 'Regional' level in the great airline labor tug-o-war, just let go of the rope.
Let them have it. Instead, focus on getting those on-property at the Legacy and Major carriers comfortably through their careers until retirement, and accept that the rest of us might not ever just slide into the cushy jobs they vacate behind them.
Instead of whining about losing the job we hope to have someday, why don't we all start FIGHTING to make the job we have NOW the job it really should be?
Hold the line in respect to those that have crossed over already- don't take more from those who already have it. After that, instead of looking to "get up, and get out" and leaving a steaming, crumbled mess behind you, look to make greedy management types pay you what you're really worth EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.
It's like I said in that essay I wrote a while back- we need to stop hanging on to the roof and start RAISING THE FLOOR.
Keeping the top salaries HIGH does nothing if the bottom salaries sink ever lower by the day. We need to focus the energy we have on where we are RIGHT NOW and not where we hope to be.
As long as low-end salaries are as cheap as they are, growth will obviously always take place at the bottom or at best in the middle. It's simple business- find the lowest operating cost and grow there.
Pilots are planners, true, and the future is where we're all going. Pilots are also realistic, as well, and should note that the concept of the future meaning nothing if you don't deal with RIGHT NOW applies not just to the operation of aircraft but the improvement and advancement of your career as well.
Sure, everybody wants to take the fast track to the top, but if that door closes, whining won't help. We, as the up and coming generation of professional aviators, can not ride the coattails of our forebears indefinitely.
Maybe it's time we opened our own door, eh?
RJ flying? Sure! Why not?
We've just got to deal with the fact that an airline pilot at a so-called "Regional Airline" does the same job with the same criteria and standards as a pilot as a "Major" or "Legacy" Carrier.
RJ is not short for "Regional Jet", it's short for "Replacement Jet".
We've got to accept that the whole industry was out-maneuvered and suckered into a gigantic C-scale of wages, work rules, and career expectations.
All the same, that doesn't have to be the end of hope in our careers at any level.
Here's how it works.
Instead of trying to 'take back' something that's over a decade into existence and likely to continue in some form for decades more, just go with it.
Instead of fighting to take back or negate flying at the so-called 'Regional' level in the great airline labor tug-o-war, just let go of the rope.
Let them have it. Instead, focus on getting those on-property at the Legacy and Major carriers comfortably through their careers until retirement, and accept that the rest of us might not ever just slide into the cushy jobs they vacate behind them.
Instead of whining about losing the job we hope to have someday, why don't we all start FIGHTING to make the job we have NOW the job it really should be?
Hold the line in respect to those that have crossed over already- don't take more from those who already have it. After that, instead of looking to "get up, and get out" and leaving a steaming, crumbled mess behind you, look to make greedy management types pay you what you're really worth EVERY STEP OF THE WAY.
It's like I said in that essay I wrote a while back- we need to stop hanging on to the roof and start RAISING THE FLOOR.
Keeping the top salaries HIGH does nothing if the bottom salaries sink ever lower by the day. We need to focus the energy we have on where we are RIGHT NOW and not where we hope to be.
As long as low-end salaries are as cheap as they are, growth will obviously always take place at the bottom or at best in the middle. It's simple business- find the lowest operating cost and grow there.
Pilots are planners, true, and the future is where we're all going. Pilots are also realistic, as well, and should note that the concept of the future meaning nothing if you don't deal with RIGHT NOW applies not just to the operation of aircraft but the improvement and advancement of your career as well.
Sure, everybody wants to take the fast track to the top, but if that door closes, whining won't help. We, as the up and coming generation of professional aviators, can not ride the coattails of our forebears indefinitely.
Maybe it's time we opened our own door, eh?
Velocipede
New Member
No, but an E-190/195 is. And how hard would it be for you to transition into one? And you'd do it in a heartbeat if it showed up on the property.
P.S. Read Firebird's post a couple times. Looks like he gets it.
Foxcow
Well-Known Member
Very well said. I have tried to convey this very thought on another forum but as you said, many have the "up and out" mentality. Why not try and improve one's situation whether it be a CFI, regional, freight, etc rather than mad dash for the top? We should be improving things so that management(s) have no incentive to start an alter-ego operating certificate or shift pieces of the schedule like a shell game between the regionals.
I for one am volunteering my time with my union.